27 TD hand, home game sitngo styyyyyle

[fiveaces17]

I don't know if this be interesting or not and its not atypical situation or hand, so we'll see how it goes...

$20 sitngo style tournament played live by three poker addicted college roommates. 20 dollars isnt high stakes for us, but for just messing around the apartment it kind of is because we usually put in between $2-$10 just to have some fun.

Blinds: 25-50, limits: 50-100
SB: 1,400 in chips
BB: 300 in chips
Button (ME): 4,200 in chips.

Description of players:
SB: inexperienced at 27 TD, but he's seen me play alot and he's a very good all poker poker player.
BB: has experience online but hasn't read SS2's chapter or anything. He's a small winner at the game. He has a tight image, but will snow (too often actually, that's the main reason he's short stacked).
Button (ME): haven't played 27 TD in awhile but was a winning player online. I'm obviously the most experience player at this game.

Pre-draw:
Me: 96543 raise
SB: re-raise
BB: re-raise
Me: re-raise

1.) Here's my reasoning to cap it: I'm almost positive the SB is still drawing and I'm hoping to start a side pot with him after the BB is all-in. There's a large chance he's drawing 2 because he likes to re-raise to get HU. I'm not very worried about the BB because he's so short stacked and he could just have a good 1 card draw or a worse 9, he's definitely capable of it. Good decision to cap it?

SB: call
BB: call (all-in)

Main Pot: 900

SB draws 2
BB draws 1
I stay pat.
SB checks, I bet, he calls.

Side pot: 100

SB stays pat! BB stays pat. I stay pat. Reasoning: confused about SB's play and it's obviously not a breakable hand.

SB checks! I bet.

2) Reasoning: I don't want him to think I'm weak and that his pat scares me. I figure if I check he'll bet the river and I'll have to make a crying call. If I bet: a) he'll call and I'll have to hope he checks the river so I can too.
b) he folds-yay! c) he check raises me and I can fold. Good or bad decision to bet?

Side pot: 300

SB is pat, BB is pat, I stay pat.
SB checks, I bet.

3) Reasoning: a)I think the BB might have the main pot locked up, so I want to put some more money in the side pot. I'm almost positive the SB will call this bet. b) I think there's a good chance I have the SB beat. I think he would've played an 86 or better much stonger. I think he could definitely just have decided to call down with a worse 9. The only hand I'm worried about is an 87. With a big stack, I'm willing to risk it (SB know I'm capable of staying pat with a bad 9 and betting the whole way). Is the bet justified or just plain reckless?

SB calls.
SB shows 97652
BB shows 86432 and wins the main pot: $900
I show 96543 and win the side pot: $500

Ok so there it is, I hope you enjoyed and I'm looking forward to many responses.

fiveaces17 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
was a winning player online. I'm obviously the most experience player at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe you if thats how you play that hand pre-draw. Drop the 9, also any hand without a duce is incredibly vulnerable.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[DustinG]

Predraw: With the big blind almost AI there is no way I am not playing this. It is still marginal, but with the chip-disparity you can afford to gamble here. In cash games I think 96543 needs to be treated as a semi-steal. The more weak-tight the blinds play the more inclinded I would be to play this hand, but when they get laggier it should be folded imo.

After it comes back to you 4 bet, instead of 5-betting, I think you should fold. You can't break your hand and you are a big enough dog here to get just of out the way after investing the miniumum.

The flop: Now you can see why you should have just folded predraw when it got back to you. The big blind certainly has you beat, and you are now in a nothing sidepot committing more chips against the sb who I would put on a hand close to yours but something that has you beat (876 and worse). I think at this you have to pray that #9 is good here against the bb, and then hope to catch an 8. There is 1000 in the pot and you are a 14-1 dog if the big blind has a worse 8. If the sb has a bad eight like I think he should then its 23-1, but thats better than staying pat with a hand that is no good. Once you see the sb's 97, you won't like it, but you wouldn't have given up much by drawing.

The turn: Given the way you have played thus far, I'm checking- the sb would have to be an idiot to be showing up with a worse hand than yours considering the bb is pat now too. Reasses your decision to stay pat pat on the flop, and draw!

The river: Check behind and you probably should fold if sb comes out firing.

The sb played it horribly. Staying pat with a 97 with two draws left against you is bad. And then after the bb is pat too after draw 1 he continues to stay pat with his 97?!? I also don't like 3-betting out of the blinds, especially considering this is tournement (no need to increase variance in a marginal situation).

AIM me sometime Five and we'll play some more badugi. (But I can understand if you don't want me in those games [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

[MarkGritter]

I think dropping the 9 and just the 9 is awful. What is he going to draw to, 4 outs to an 8? Gonna dump one of those other cards if you catch a 2 or 7?

Raising this from the button is fine and planning to stay pat is fine. But from a tournament perspective, putting in the 4th bet predraw is not so good. It might be OK to fold when it's two bets back to you as you can't really draw to a better hand.

It is not necessary to put BB all-in right away. He'll get there. (Heck, if he folds, great.) You probably don't want SB going to showdown in a side pot. Your hand does not want action.

I suspect the chip count is incorrect here, you only total to 5900. I'm also assuming you only pay one player (since you started with 3) so cash EV is pretty close to chip EV.

[fiveaces17]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
was a winning player online. I'm obviously the most experience player at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe you if thats how you play that hand pre-draw. Drop the 9, also any hand without a duce is incredibly vulnerable.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, TT that's pretty harsh. I'm sorry I don't play like a machine and only worry about my cards. Some poker players try to get reads on players and trust their instincts. Hmmm, I was right about the SB drawing 2 and the BB's stack was so short that if he's drawing 1 I really don't mind, I'm still in a possible scooping situation. Using aggression and going with my reads is how I play poker, fault me for it if you want. Also, dropping the 9 and drawing to that hand is just terrible.

[DustinG]

[ QUOTE ]

Wow, TT that's pretty harsh. I'm sorry I don't play like a machine and only worry about my cards. Some poker players try to get reads on players and trust their instincts. Hmmm, I was right about the SB drawing 2 and the BB's stack was so short that if he's drawing 1 I really don't mind, I'm still in a possible scooping situation. Using aggression and going with my reads is how I play poker, fault me for it if you want. Also, dropping the 9 and drawing to that hand is just terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was harsh, I agree, and I think most everyone will agree that your hand is playable- but your logic is flawed. Just because you have a pat hand and no one else is pat doesn't mean you should be continuing with this hand after it comes back 4 bets. Its pretty rare for two pat hands to be dealt, so obviously your hand is probably good predraw the same way 98764 would be good- but that doesn't mean its right to play them. I think the fact that the big blind is almost AI is pretty meaningless- your still going to have to get lucky to win a 3 way pot. Maybe given the chip counts you can afford to take a -ev gamble here, but I'm not sure. Did you end up winning this thing I hope?

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I think dropping the 9 and just the 9 is awful. What is he going to draw to, 4 outs to an 8? Gonna dump one of those other cards if you catch a 2 or 7?

[/ QUOTE ]

my bad, drop the 9 & the 6. I typed my response too quickly, but I stand by my belief that the OP spewed, I doubt he is a winer if thats how he normally plays. A 96xxx is a dog compared to his opponents hand range. Powering through the hand by staying pat is bad, and keeping the 9 when the rest of the cards are semi rough (the 6 as the second highest card isn't that bad, but there is no redraw possible without the duce) are both bad options.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
was a winning player online. I'm obviously the most experience player at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe you if thats how you play that hand pre-draw. Drop the 9, also any hand without a duce is incredibly vulnerable.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, TT that's pretty harsh. I'm sorry I don't play like a machine and only worry about my cards. Some poker players try to get reads on players and trust their instincts. Hmmm, I was right about the SB drawing 2 and the BB's stack was so short that if he's drawing 1 I really don't mind, I'm still in a possible scooping situation. Using aggression and going with my reads is how I play poker, fault me for it if you want. Also, dropping the 9 and drawing to that hand is just terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

An aggressive TAG style 2-7 player makes a profit off of players who go with their gut, TD is a very mathematical game (example 52 cards in the deck, you have seen 5, your opponent raises from early position therefore he has at least 3 cards under an 8 at a very minimum, your draw decreases the number of unseen cards, price the pot is paying you vs the odds to complete your hand, how many people in the pot all drawing to low cards, etc) that requires you to make these gut calls late in the hand mostly after the third draw, not early as you made. Also the key to profiting in the long run is selective aggression, not blind aggression. 9x out of 10 when its 4 bets back to you, you are crushed with that starting hand. This time you are letting results cloud your judgement... don't ever consider the results when reviewing what the best possible action would be.

Side note - scooping? There is no scooping in 2-7, its not a hi-low game.

PS - tough love... at least you wont forget in the future how spewy this hand was played!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[InWithTheBest]

I almost never keep pat 9s predraw anymore cause I seem to never win when i do. This spot id draw two and consider folding i didnt catch a 2 or an 8 That being said TT id love for you to come play with us sometime in the medium level UB games. Get to see some of this stuff you preach in action.. How come you chose not to?

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost never keep pat 9s predraw anymore cause I seem to never win when i do. This spot id draw two and consider folding i didnt catch a 2 or an 8 That being said TT id love for you to come play with us sometime in the medium level UB games. Get to see some of this stuff you preach in action.. How come you chose not to?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't remember? I have played with you before both at the 3/6-4/8 and also at the 10/20 levels. No more UB bankroll however, I'm not playing as much as I used to due to work (I don't play for a living). However if you'd like to meet in Vegas after the new year, I'd love to play... and hopefully much bigger stakes than mid limit but I'm open minded.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]