Micro / Medium Stakes

[restinpeace]

Hi, after reading for my first post i would like to get some point of view from other players.

To introduce i would like to say i am a winning player on 0.5/1 6max NL stakes. For some reasons i cashed out almost 99% of my roll and had to start over again with like 30$ left.So i started to grind from the .05/.1 6max NL and ...
The fact is i can't win [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] . After 4 deposit (4X 30$) i loose again and again (some bad play from me i must admit , raises no respected on those table , almost no bluff possible , etc...)
I tryed to play more ABC poker (since no bluff allowed , and on those table you have to show the best hand to win on showdown) -> work a bit well But winnings are slow and bad beats / variance cover the gains.

This my appears idiot but "It is possible to be a correct winner on medium stakes while being looser/mediocre on micro" ? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I am confused and loose slowly the confidence i got in 3 months of succes in medium stakes.

(To clarify i dont really want to afford a starting bankroll for .25/.50 stakes (at least 600$) )

Any advices ?

[RichAM]

um ... if you would have just deposited the $120 and started with 5NL or 10NL then you could use bankroll management

[restinpeace]

[ QUOTE ]
um ... if you would have just deposited the $120 and started with 5NL or 10NL then you could use bankroll management

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first, ty for reply and of course i am agree with you BUT that s not really the point : i was nicely "ok" in the NL50 but now loose on NL10. May be re-adaptation is required or i need to wait to be able to put 600$ to restart properly. hard to tell.

Am i sure i not alone in this boat , many of us are playing micro/medium stakes and have problemes to grind from lowest level after gone busto/cashout.

[Rookcifer]

That's the way it goes. You win some and lose some. Nothing can really be done about it. I have been stuck at a break even point now for a couple days. Nothing I do works. I go all in with kings, a guy has aces. I make 3 kings on the flop, try to slow play it, and a 7 hits on turn. Guy bets, I go all in, and he calls with kings full of 7's. My slow-play backfired and I allowed him to hit his 7. That's why I feel it is never correct to slow-play, you lose too often (my own personal opinion).

Everyone says play tight at micro levels, but I think that you leave a lot of money out there when you do. Every time I see a super stack at a micro table, the guy is at least 35-40% VPIP (sometimes 50-75%). If you play tight, people notice and will never give your premium hands action. I can sit there for hours either folding my hands or raising premium hands pre-flop only to get no callers. Basically I make no money due to this, which is one reason why I am stuck. My bankroll has been within a $10 range for the last two days -- up and down. I haven't really lost anything, but haven't made anything either.

Sorry for the digression, back to your point..

I also play .02/.05 and .05/.1. I have been getting crushed at .02/.05 but am consistently beating NL10 (about 10ptBB/100). NL .02/.05 is killing me for some reason. I suppose it's just the way of the game - randomness, bad luck, variance, whatever. Anyway, just know you are not alone in dealing with this "paradox" of winning one level and losing at a lower level. The more I play the more I think poker cannot be taught, but is an innate skill. Most of us will never be that good no matter how smart we are, how much we study, get coached, etc..

[RichAM]

to play 50NL you actually need $1000, that way you have the sufficient 20 buy-ins

[pzhon]

By the way, NL $50 is not considered medium stakes. Perhaps it ought to be, but it is still considered microstakes. The small stakes NL forum primarily covers NL $100 and NL $200.

The basic answer is that almost all players find lower stakes games easier, and the downswings are less severe when your win rate is higher. Your win rate rises quietly when your opponents play badly in ways you don't have to exploit actively. For example, you will more often see someone check behind on the river with a very strong hand in lower stakes games. Your opponents will fail to make profitable bluffs, and will not size their bets properly. You don't have to do anything to benefit from these.

There may tend to be more multiway pots in low stakes games, and you may want to exploit a slightly different set of weaknesses, but if you have a solid win rate at NL $50, you should have no trouble beating NL $10.

While it is possible that you have simply hit an exceptional streak of bad luck, my guess is that you aren't beating NL $50 for very much. Perhaps you are making some plays that work at NL $50, but you don't know why, and don't know how to adjust to NL $10. Are the stack depths the same? Are you relying on implied odds that are not present? Do your tactics rely on the presence of players who fold too much?

[restinpeace]

[ QUOTE ]
While it is possible that you have simply hit an exceptional streak of bad luck, my guess is that you aren't beating NL $50 for very much. Perhaps you are making some plays that work at NL $50, but you don't know why, and don't know how to adjust to NL $10.

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Sad but possibly true , i'll continue to read book/watch Cardrunner/2+2 and redeposit 30$ again to restart from bottom at NL10... master it then move up when bankroll will be ok.
At least i ll not loose to much and have fun héhé.

TY Pzhon , Rock too for your story.

________________________________________________
No tilt - Position - Starting hands - Open raise

[johnnydrama]

[ QUOTE ]
I am confused and loose slowly the confidence i got in 3 months of succes in medium stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 months? Not nearly enough time to know you are a winner. My guess is you ran well at the "medium" stakes and now are seeing how you truely play. Also, you are not rolled for .05/.10 6max. $30 is not enough so maybe you play scared. Drop down to .01/.02 and follow BR management before moving up.

[kayaker]

RIP,
I am in a very similar position as you, having been a winning player at .50/1 (NL100) back before the US legislation scared a lot of us off. I pulled all of my money off and have only recently started playing online again.

This time I started with $30 a friend lent me from his online bankroll. I've played 50c - $5 SnGs and 1c/2c and 5c/10c full ring since I came back and had a difficult adjustment at first. (For those who might ask, starting with this $30 roll was a choice. I could have just paid my friend for much more, but I decided I wanted to see if I could do this.)

There are a few things to keep in mind when playing super-micro (1c/2c and 5c/10c) that will help you make the transition. (It turned into more than I expected, so call it my "10 Suggestions for Super-Micro".)

1. Most players at this level are bad. I don't mean they're not very good, I mean they are BAD. Calling down with bottom pair, chasing flushes when they are clearly priced out, thinking TPTK is a great hand, even with a four-flush and four-straight on the board, etc.

2. Bluffing IS possible, but you really have to pick your spots. A good example is when you think your opponent has a decent PP and you're drawing. An ace hits the turn. It missed you, but you're pretty sure if you had one, it would beat your opponent. This is a perfect time to try a bluff. If you get called, you'll most likely need to give it up.

3. Play tight. OK, so this one is pretty self-evident. Still, it can't be said enough. While you're getting the hang of things at this level, stop playing AT and PPs lower than 88 from EP. Once you start to get a feel for the table you can loosen up a bit, but starting tighter will help lessen the variance.

4. They are not bluffing. Few people at this level bluff. Therefore, if they're betting out, they THINK they have the best hand or can catch it. That doesn't mean they DO, but they think they do. You'll be surprised at how many think they have the best of it with third pair.

5. Min-bets are for losers. Don't min-bet unless you WANT a call. If there are five people in the pot on the flop and you min-bet, expect at least three callers. Conversely, if someone else min-bets and you're on a draw, you have to call. There's nothing more fun that setting a guy off by catching your card on the river because he kept pricing you in. They get mad because you chased, but you know if they had bet more you would have folded.

6. Beware of the Short Stackers. Playing NL2 and see five stacks around 20 cents? Those are Short Stackers (SSers). They will be pushing pre-flop if they play a hand. Some will limp PF and push the flop, but the idea is the same. Take the skill out of the game in hopes of a quick double/triple so they can rat-hole their winnings. There are two things you can do to combat the SSers. A) Don't sit if there are more than two or three - and don't sit with them on your left. B) Don't call unless you have a big hand (TT+/AQ+). Note: Some SSers are better than others. Pay attention to which ones push with crap and which wait for a monster.

7. If you think your opponent is chasing, he probably is. And boy, do they love to chase. A lot of players at these levels will chase flushes like they already have the best hand. And it doesn't matter how high their flush is. 52 suited? That's a monster if they hit the flush as far as they are concerned. Make them pay to chase. You must bet at least the pot if you think your opponent is chasing a flush. Anything less and they are certain to call. By over-betting the pot, you make it a bad mistake for them to call.

8. Straights are frequently NOT chased. Don't ask me why this is, perhaps some of them just can't see that J9 in their hand and 8KT on the board makes for a straight draw. Regardless, straight-chasers are a lot less common than flush-chasers.

9. Think they can't have two-pair on a K73 board when you raised PF? Think again. There are some players who will play any A, any K and any suited Q. Hell, there are some who will play ATC as long as they are suited. (Hence the once-common refrain, "it was sooted!") Reading your opponent at these levels is much more difficult than NL50 or NL100 because at those levels most players only play real hands. At NL2 and NL10, you'll commonly find people who really do play just about anything. If you use Poker Tracker, you'll likely even find some with stats like 80/5/1. (Yes, that would be seeing 80%+ of all flops.)

10. Finally, the biggest rule for playing NL2 and NL10 is to be patient. You will go a round or two (or four or five) between hands you play. You will get sucked out on by a KQ who calls a raise, re-raise and a push PF. And you WILL have losing sessions. But be patient and you can make money and build your bankroll.

[restinpeace]

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is you ran well at the "medium" stakes and now are seeing how you truely play.

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Once again .. it s not nice lol and it's possible. Not to bash back you cause it s nice from you to answer at my post, but come get a look in "calland" and see if things are really easier than higher when you r in jungle.