Freewill

[bunny]

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My arguement against free will can be summised in one paragrarh;

Question:
If u were George Bush would you have done ANYTHING differently? Would you have thought or acted or felt in any way differently to him?

Answer:
No. If u were Bush u would have felt exactly the same as him and acted based on these feelings in exactly the same way.

This proves that as entities we have no ability to change our path.

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This is known as begging the question. If it is true that we have no free will then you are probably correct - George Bush would always do as George Bush did. The thing is, you're trying to prove that, so you cant just assume it to be true. You have to go further back - assuming you dont know if George Bush would always have chosen the same, can you prove he would have from more primitive assumptions?

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I think of the human as a computer system which will always make decisions that they think (experience + IQ determines thinking power) will benefit them most.

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Perhaps this premise can be tightened up and lead to the conclusion you want. However, there are plenty of people who deny the truth of this premise. Do you think it's self-evident that humans are computer systems which will always make decisions that they think will benefit them most?

[Subfallen]

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I think of the human as a computer system which will always make decisions that they think (experience + IQ determines thinking power) will benefit them most.


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So you say a person acts according to "what he wants." But your definition of "what he wants" is exactly: "how he acts." [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Clearly this an entirely circular project...it just goes to show the hopeless ambiguity caused by lazily assuming that humans are anything like idealized Agents.

[Xylem]

hmmm.

Ive actually been beaten in less than 5 posts.

Let me have a thinkabout this.

[oe39]

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[ QUOTE ]

I think of the human as a computer system which will always make decisions that they think (experience + IQ determines thinking power) will benefit them most.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you say a person acts according to "what he wants." But your definition of "what he wants" is exactly: "how he acts." [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Clearly this an entirely circular project...it just goes to show the hopeless ambiguity caused by lazily assuming that humans are anything like idealized Agents.

[/ QUOTE ]

you'd prefer that he redefines free will to mean something different than most would recognize in order to avoid difficult questions?

[Subfallen]

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I think of the human as a computer system which will always make decisions that they think (experience + IQ determines thinking power) will benefit them most.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you say a person acts according to "what he wants." But your definition of "what he wants" is exactly: "how he acts." [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Clearly this an entirely circular project...it just goes to show the hopeless ambiguity caused by lazily assuming that humans are anything like idealized Agents.

[/ QUOTE ]

you'd prefer that he redefines free will to mean something different than most would recognize in order to avoid difficult questions?

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No, I'd prefer that he empirically establish the human "Will" before inquiring into its freedom.

[Qrawl]

Why are you all still confused. I already told you. There is no freewill. The human mind is WAY too big to be controlling anything. All "decisions" happen at the tiniest level possible. That's where all the mathematical computations are occurring.

[Xylem]

Can you look back on ure life, considering the exact same thoughts u would have had etc and say that u would have chose differently?

Once again this is as flawed as the 'Bush' example but it has relevance.

[Xylem]

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Why are you all still confused. I already told you. There is no freewill. The human mind is WAY too big to be controlling anything. All "decisions" happen at the tiniest level possible. That's where all the mathematical computations are occurring.

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Thats my new arguement then.

Btw i argued for this implicitly without knowledge of these established theories.

[hitch1978]

Of course you did, you had no choice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[tame_deuces]

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Why are you all still confused. I already told you. There is no freewill. The human mind is WAY too big to be controlling anything. All "decisions" happen at the tiniest level possible. That's where all the mathematical computations are occurring.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see many confused people.

But since you are not god I'll venture a guess (out of my own free will or because the universe made me do it, it doesn't really matter) and make the bold guess that you don't hold the combined knowledge you need to make that claim stick.

It is also quite clear this thread operates with at least two distinct definitions of free will.

One defines free will as the ability to make different actions within the confines of reality as proposed by the properties of the universe and the other seems to define free will as the ability to breach these confines.