Interesting NL Situation in AC

Jeffage · #1 03-27-2007, 02:23 AM

So I played a little NL in AC in a smaller room when this situation came up. A large pot was contested with three players all in on a flop of 8d5d6s rainbow. All players went all in on the flop for in the neighborhood of 250 each.

The dealer ran the turn and river which were both jacks for a board of 8d5d6sJcJh. The middle all in player turned over 85s for a counterfeited two pair. The later player mucked (and his cards were properly buried) and the first player mucked but his cards were only inches from his fingers and the dealer did not quickly kill the hand. Then, a friend of the first player who was also playing in the game said, WHAT DID YOU FOLD MAN? and all of a sudden it seemed like something went off in the players mind and he quickly turned them over to reveal 9h8h for a better two pair.

Now all hell breaks loose with everyone shouting and screaming, saying he mucked and shouldn't be able to get the pot and that the other guy shouldn't make a comment and blah blah. The floor is called and seems at a genuine loss as to what to do. He says they will "go to the cameras" and "don't touch anything" and leaves the table as everyone continues to shout and argue and the dealer complained that her half hour was ruined bc of this delay.

I wasn't really sure what the cameras would show - I mean, clearly the guy mucked his hand and just as clearly, the cards were retrievable and he turned them over. So, despite the fact that in principle I think the guy deserved to lose bc he can't read the board and prob only showed bc of his friends non-specific hint, I thought there was no chance his hand would be ruled dead.

Anyway, after about 10 more minutes of this, the players talked privately and agreed to split the pot, which the floor allowed, saying it was "between them and we have nothing to do with it," yet a casino employee split the pot for them (if it was between them, why not shove it to the winner). I actually was kinda curious about what the decision would be if it would have "went to the cameras" and wouldn't have minded watching the ensuing bedlam.

Thoughts?

Jeff

Bishop22 · #2 03-27-2007, 02:44 AM

Going to the cameras has to be wrong. It seems that the table could have agreed that the cards were either mucked or simply placed face down in front of the player (unlikely) and a decision could have been made from there. I've only seen this twice, once at Wynn when an internet player showed one whole card for quads and mucked the other, card was retrievable and floor retrieved. The second time, I pushed my cards about three inches forward in a large Omaha pot after paying off one bet on a river hoping to catch a bluff, I mis-read his hand and my hand sat mucked for about five seconds before I retrieved and tabled, my hand was ruled live. I thought the intent to muck killed the hand but I haven't seen that in practice.

bav · #3 03-27-2007, 04:36 AM

This is a bit tough. Unless they play with a strict betting line and any facedown cards over the line are toast, the player generally gets to fetch his cards back until they are dragged in. But... violation of the one-player-to-a-hand rule is one excuse for not allowing the cards to be retrieved. If the player next to him said "no, your two-pair was good!" after the guy clearly mucked, he can't have 'em back. He didn't do that. He said "what did you have?" That's not helping him play the hand. Sooooo... I'd let him pull 'em back.

flytrap · #4 03-27-2007, 06:31 AM

I think every effort should be made to pay the best hand at showdown. That being said, this is an arguement for not letting the rail watch the games, and also for making people turn their hands up when all-in. They should put a low-stakes limit game in the area where people stand waiting for a seat. I hate how in Detroit, at both cardrooms, they have the 5/10 NL game I play in right next to the rail. They should put a 5/10 limit game here, or the 1/2 NL.

vmacosta · #5 03-27-2007, 06:50 AM

I think the guy with 98 should get the pot. I might be biased from playing lots of internet poker where the best hand wins and people don't try and [censored] each other over using crappy psychological maneuvers (not that this ocurred here).

canis582 · #6 03-27-2007, 08:37 AM

Just because he's a [censored] doesn't mean he won't get the pot. Does anyone dispute the cards aren't his?

I don't see myself dealing poker, but I'm gonna be a an eagle eye for that mucking motion and a like a hoover to pick them up.

afish · #7 03-27-2007, 09:16 AM

The 98 gets the pot. At the Taj or the Borgata, this would be the swift ruling from almost any floorperson.

punkass · #8 03-27-2007, 09:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The 98 gets the pot. At the Taj or the Borgata, this would be the swift ruling from almost any floorperson.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is the only solution to this situation. If the players agree to split, that's up to them, but the floor's decision should be that 98 was never dead and certainly retrievable. If the dealer washed his cards, then he'd be SOL, but in this case, best hand wins.

This should have never gone to the cameras and waste 30 minutes of everyone's time.

binions · #9 03-27-2007, 09:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So I played a little NL in AC in a smaller room when this situation came up. A large pot was contested with three players all in on a flop of 8d5d6s rainbow. All players went all in on the flop for in the neighborhood of 250 each.

The dealer ran the turn and river which were both jacks for a board of 8d5d6sJcJh. The middle all in player turned over 85s for a counterfeited two pair. The later player mucked (and his cards were properly buried) and the first player mucked but his cards were only inches from his fingers and the dealer did not quickly kill the hand. Then, a friend of the first player who was also playing in the game said, WHAT DID YOU FOLD MAN? and all of a sudden it seemed like something went off in the players mind and he quickly turned them over to reveal 9h8h for a better two pair.

Now all hell breaks loose with everyone shouting and screaming, saying he mucked and shouldn't be able to get the pot and that the other guy shouldn't make a comment and blah blah. The floor is called and seems at a genuine loss as to what to do. He says they will "go to the cameras" and "don't touch anything" and leaves the table as everyone continues to shout and argue and the dealer complained that her half hour was ruined bc of this delay.

I wasn't really sure what the cameras would show - I mean, clearly the guy mucked his hand and just as clearly, the cards were retrievable and he turned them over. So, despite the fact that in principle I think the guy deserved to lose bc he can't read the board and prob only showed bc of his friends non-specific hint, I thought there was no chance his hand would be ruled dead.

Anyway, after about 10 more minutes of this, the players talked privately and agreed to split the pot, which the floor allowed, saying it was "between them and we have nothing to do with it," yet a casino employee split the pot for them (if it was between them, why not shove it to the winner). I actually was kinda curious about what the decision would be if it would have "went to the cameras" and wouldn't have minded watching the ensuing bedlam.

Thoughts?

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Cards aren't dead until they hit the muck. As described, 98 wins the hand.

ScottHoward · #10 03-27-2007, 10:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The 98 gets the pot. At the Taj or the Borgata, this would be the swift ruling from almost any floorperson.

[/ QUOTE ]
dont be too sure the borg rules for the 89
ive seen it go the other way, and actually at the borg, i would think the swift ruling from almost any floor would be that it was a mucked hand and the 98 gets nothing.