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#31
11-03-2006, 12:42 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
[ QUOTE ]
[censored] I said I wouldn't post in this thread again, but Drzen you are [censored] retarded. [/ QUOTE ] Fine. [ QUOTE ] Please answer this question why would a one pair hand ever minraise this river? [/ QUOTE ] I explained why. You bet the flop. TP. You checked the turn, scared of an ace. You have Kx. You then bet the river when the FD came in. You have Kx and you're FOS. Instead of calling me names, why don't you explain why no one ever thinks like that? Your whole post totally ignores how your action looks to them. Does that have no part in your "hand reading"? [ QUOTE ] If you want to answer with well he's a donk then ignore the rest of my post, because for this exercise I'm assuming my opponents are not complete tool box donkeys like yourself [/ QUOTE ] You assumed your opponents play exactly the same way you do? And you're calling me a tool box donkey? Okay, man. Whatever makes you smile, hey? 
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#32
11-03-2006, 12:48 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
[ QUOTE ]
Drzen Stop being such a [censored] nit especially when you are wrong I said his raise has LITTLE FE if you are going to dissect my posts word by word and debate every little thing at least get it right. [/ QUOTE ] Okay, my apologies. [ QUOTE ] Okay I was wrong people will fold a flush draw on this flop to a lot of action. LOL you got me way to pwn me based on my grammar. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not trying to pwn anyone. I want better players to *explain* why they think I'm wrong, not just keep saying "you're wrong". I don't become wrong just because pudge or you or BigT or BigT's really good grandma say so. I think plenty of players fold this flop with a flush draw. It depends what draw it is and what they think about you, what you might have, how heavy the future action might be, what the other caller might have. [ QUOTE ] Maybe instead of worrying about nitty mistakes like this you should learn how to play poker. [/ QUOTE ] I'm trying to. It's just unlucky for me I've run into guys who prefer mouthing off to giving a lesson.
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#33
11-03-2006, 12:49 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
[ QUOTE ]
You assumed your opponents play exactly the same way you do? And you're calling me a tool box donkey? Okay, man. Whatever makes you smile, hey? [/ QUOTE ] Are you [censored] kidding me? I really hope your a troll because nobody can actually be this stupid
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#34
11-03-2006, 12:52 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
Excellent river analysis. It is something that is critical yet few people understand. All it does is give worse hands the chance to showdown for free. Nothing better is checking and you lose value from worse hands that will call but not bet for value. The options in this situation are either check/fold or bet. Check/call is easily the worst of the three.
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#35
11-03-2006, 01:08 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
[ QUOTE ]
Excellent river analysis. It is something that is critical yet few people understand. All it does is give worse hands the chance to showdown for free. Nothing better is checking and you lose value from worse hands that will call but not bet for value. The options in this situation are either check/fold or bet. Check/call is easily the worst of the three. [/ QUOTE ] You lose value to worse hands but you give it up to better hands. Is that a consideration? How likely to be best do you need to be here to bet for value? I'd bet this every time in a limit game. Should I be betting with the same frequency in NL? That's an area I don't have a good grip on, so I'd welcome your analysis. You also allow worse hands to bluff you out (I don't think this is what's happened here but it's a possibility if you bet here). Is that something that would concern you or do you think that checking is more likely to induce the bluff here? Why is check/folding good though? That seems to me to assume that he can *only* have the FD or a better two pair if he bets. Again, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think a smallish bet would make it a tougher decision. A lot of players are going to bluff here, aren't they? I liked the bet and I'd fold to the raise. I don't think we're always beaten at all, but I don't think I'll win often enough to make it worth calling it.
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#36
11-03-2006, 01:08 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
Your thought process is good and everything on this post flop hand, but I still think good post flop play has limited correlation with SnG success. You are ultimately risking too much to win too little with these hands. You are much better to wait for much better risk/reward type spots when the blinds themselves are worth fighting for. Just my opinion.
As always for people who want to play a post flop game, SnGs are the wrong place, imo.
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#37
11-03-2006, 01:11 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
What hands are going to bluff?
QJ has a straight. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s have a flush. There is no possible draw on the flop that didn't get there. If he bets he is going to have a hand. Now he might not always have you beat (like he might just have Ax) but if you bet that Ax hand will call so it is a wash. The downside to checking is that better hands will never check and worse hands sometimes will. It could be that check/calling +EV compared to check/folding but betting will be even more +EV and that is why c/c'ing is incorrect. The time to check/call (or consider it) is when the draw doesn't come in. C/c'ing when it does isn't good poker at all. Edit - And yes this is coming from a LHE player as this concept is critical in LHE but imo it applies in NLHE as well.
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#38
11-03-2006, 01:12 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You assumed your opponents play exactly the same way you do? And you're calling me a tool box donkey? Okay, man. Whatever makes you smile, hey? [/ QUOTE ] Are you [censored] kidding me? I really hope your a troll because nobody can actually be this stupid [/ QUOTE ] I explained why I felt you couldn't completely exclude Ax from your opponent's range and your bro's answer is that he assumes the guy isn't a donk. I think you should keep out of threads started by people you are related to because you don't seem to be able to handle disagreement with them too well. In the interests of a peaceful existence, I'm happy to call it quits with you. You, and your brother, clearly prefer flaming other posters than defending your thinking, so what's in it for me? I've gained nothing from talking to you. Cheers now.
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#39
11-03-2006, 01:15 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
Man I read the OP, saw it was a long thread and I thought there was going to be a good discussion.
DrZen, just give up, you are wrong. In any case, I don't think they are flaming you. They are just calling out your very weak arguments, which is certainly fair game on an internet forum.
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#40
11-03-2006, 01:26 AM
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Re: 6000th Post. Let\'s Try This Hand Reading Thing Again
[ QUOTE ]
What hands are going to bluff? [/ QUOTE ] Is it not a bluff if you have a made hand but don't think it's winning? Okay. QhT might call the flop loosely. He has seven and a half pretty clean outs against top pair. That's the only busted draw I can think of. I guess JhT is the same sort of thing but I'm happy to assume we're not against a donkey. So okay, not much is going to bluff. [ QUOTE ] QJ has a straight. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s have a flush. There is no possible draw on the flop that didn't get there. If he bets he is going to have a hand. Now he might not always have you beat (like he might just have Ax) but if you bet that Ax hand will call so it is a wash. The downside to checking is that better hands will never check and worse hands sometimes will. It could be that check/calling +EV compared to check/folding but betting will be even more +EV and that is why c/c'ing is incorrect. [/ QUOTE ] Okay, thanks for going through that. That sure beats "you are a tool box donkey".
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