should all good athiest sceintist should believe in......

[FortunaMaximus]

Neither. But linearly the chicken comes first, obviously.

I mean, infinity is a provable concept in mathematics, and there are numerous examples.

I tend to think this universe is just an expression of an very complicated mathematical equation. All those things about "coincidences" are illusory because since it's happened, it's a fundamental expression of a certain set of mathematics.

Chickens keep laying eggs and those eggs turn into chickens. And the process keeps going.

An omega intelligence or God would still be limited by perpetual infinite growth and that there are still unexpressed equations and sets.

Yeah, a multiverse model is viable, but much like quantum mechanics and theory, we're just beginning to get the inklings of how such a concept could be expressed.

What's unique is that mathematics can exist independently of life and you can create anything you want with it. Which doesn't necessarily lean one towards intelligent creation, but allows the possibility to approach 1.

[kurto]

FYI - you have no basis for saying this: "There is a 50/50 chance that the universe was intelligently created"

that implies both answers are equally probable. That would imply that the evidence and arguments for both sides are equal. Most of the arguments for a designer come from the religious who are basing their arguments mostly on Faith.

It would be correct to say it is one or the other. But not correct to say each is just as probable.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess what I am asking is if we assume God doesn't exist then doesn't it make the most sense to put our faith in a multi-universe model?


[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is no. A multi-universe model might make the most sense, but that is not implied by a "no God" assumption. Rather it can only be justified according to the best or most likely extrapolations from theoretical physics and cosmology.

Your proposition is a non sequitur. The non-existence of God (or unicorns, or gremlins, etc) is a default position in the absence of coherent definitions and/or evidence. Thus it can imply nothing at all about what does exist.

[madnak]

Since nobody has said it yet...

"Amazing," said the puddle, "this hole I'm in fits me perfectly!"

[hitch1978]

Would a multi-universe model, if proved correct tommorow, have the theists saying, 'well it seems much more likely we are just a fluke.'? I think not, and the arguement works equally well in reverse.

I have no interest in trying to prove a point athiest vs thiest. Just a side of the arguement that is often forgotten in these discusions.

[FortunaMaximus]

No, they'd just still attribute it as a bigger mystery of God. If anything, theists are implacable on that sticking point.

Lack of imagination, I think. The standard answer to anything is "Oh, but it's God's plan.", no matter what is discovered. Makes it easy for theists to stick to faith instead of being put upon for burden of proof.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
No, they'd just still attribute it as a bigger mystery of God. If anything, theists are implacable on that sticking point.

Lack of imagination, I think. The standard answer to anything is "Oh, but it's God's plan.", no matter what is discovered. Makes it easy for theists to stick to faith instead of being put upon for burden of proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

Au contraire mon frere (forgive the lack of an accent mark on my first "e" in frere). We might have more imagination. What if the whole universe and the earth is a work in progress. Why does God have to be a creator like a scientist or an engineer when he created Earth. What if he's more like an artistic creator. If that is so then doesn't he have a right to all kinds of artistic expression and poetic license. So you either fit into his picture on his terms or you're out. Sort of like a painter blotting out a part of a picture he doesn't like where the colors just aren't right. Of course, God is quite the artist since his is a living eternal work of art. Think he's trying to make us his masterpiece?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, they'd just still attribute it as a bigger mystery of God. If anything, theists are implacable on that sticking point.

Lack of imagination, I think. The standard answer to anything is "Oh, but it's God's plan.", no matter what is discovered. Makes it easy for theists to stick to faith instead of being put upon for burden of proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

Au contraire mon frere (forgive the lack of an accent mark on my first "e" in frere). We might have more imagination. What if the whole universe and the earth is a work in progress. Why does God have to be a creator like a scientist or an engineer when he created Earth. What if he's more like an artistic creator. If that is so then doesn't he have a right to all kinds of artistic expression and poetic license. So you either fit into his picture on his terms or you're out. Sort of like a painter blotting out a part of a picture he doesn't like where the colors just aren't right. Of course, God is quite the artist since his is a living eternal work of art. Think he's trying to make us his masterpiece?

[/ QUOTE ]

More that the masterpiece is developing itself. I have to concede that at least some Christians have imagination, but I'm thinking mostly of those who believe blindly and don't question and quest for more knowledge and understanding.

This planet and this universe could have been created, but there's an awful lot of randomness and quantum weirdness not to attribute at least some sway and things not known yet in his plan.

It may not be fit or fold, but everything's there for a reason and there is a logical progression.

I don't think such a being would fully know his art, but be quite proficient at it and still have learning to do. That seems to be the most just of all possibilities. If it's a creation, it is truly a gorgeous one. It's the moral diversity that makes me wonder sometimes.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, they'd just still attribute it as a bigger mystery of God. If anything, theists are implacable on that sticking point.

Lack of imagination, I think. The standard answer to anything is "Oh, but it's God's plan.", no matter what is discovered. Makes it easy for theists to stick to faith instead of being put upon for burden of proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

Au contraire mon frere (forgive the lack of an accent mark on my first "e" in frere). We might have more imagination. What if the whole universe and the earth is a work in progress. Why does God have to be a creator like a scientist or an engineer when he created Earth. What if he's more like an artistic creator. If that is so then doesn't he have a right to all kinds of artistic expression and poetic license. So you either fit into his picture on his terms or you're out. Sort of like a painter blotting out a part of a picture he doesn't like where the colors just aren't right. Of course, God is quite the artist since his is a living eternal work of art. Think he's trying to make us his masterpiece?

[/ QUOTE ]

More that the masterpiece is developing itself. I have to concede that at least some Christians have imagination, but I'm thinking mostly of those who believe blindly and don't question and quest for more knowledge and understanding.

This planet and this universe could have been created, but there's an awful lot of randomness and quantum weirdness not to attribute at least some sway and things not known yet in his plan.

It may not be fit or fold, but everything's there for a reason and there is a logical progression.

I don't think such a being would fully know his art, but be quite proficient at it and still have learning to do. That seems to be the most just of all possibilities. If it's a creation, it is truly a gorgeous one. It's the moral diversity that makes me wonder sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's something that won't fit or fold, but its interesting though not totally relevant to this thread unless it could be considered another universe. I was poking around in the library today and came across a book called "Where God Lives" by Melvin Morse M.D. I haven't had a chance to read it all yet but I just pulled out an interesting quote he makes under the subchapter Universal Communication: "Now I know that many memories are embedded in the universal energy pattern and that we access them through our right temporal lobe. One of the children I studied summed it up nicely. When I asked him where he went during his NDE, he said, "I went out there where everything is. I could see everything and talk to everything because it's all around us all the time, we just can't see it most of the time.
When I think of what he said, it becomes easy to understand ghosts and angels."

[hitch1978]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, they'd just still attribute it as a bigger mystery of God. If anything, theists are implacable on that sticking point.

Lack of imagination, I think. The standard answer to anything is "Oh, but it's God's plan.", no matter what is discovered. Makes it easy for theists to stick to faith instead of being put upon for burden of proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

Au contraire mon frere (forgive the lack of an accent mark on my first "e" in frere). We might have more imagination. What if the whole universe and the earth is a work in progress. Why does God have to be a creator like a scientist or an engineer when he created Earth. What if he's more like an artistic creator. If that is so then doesn't he have a right to all kinds of artistic expression and poetic license. So you either fit into his picture on his terms or you're out. Sort of like a painter blotting out a part of a picture he doesn't like where the colors just aren't right. Of course, God is quite the artist since his is a living eternal work of art. Think he's trying to make us his masterpiece?

[/ QUOTE ]

More that the masterpiece is developing itself. I have to concede that at least some Christians have imagination, but I'm thinking mostly of those who believe blindly and don't question and quest for more knowledge and understanding.

This planet and this universe could have been created, but there's an awful lot of randomness and quantum weirdness not to attribute at least some sway and things not known yet in his plan.

It may not be fit or fold, but everything's there for a reason and there is a logical progression.

I don't think such a being would fully know his art, but be quite proficient at it and still have learning to do. That seems to be the most just of all possibilities. If it's a creation, it is truly a gorgeous one. It's the moral diversity that makes me wonder sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's something that won't fit or fold, but its interesting though not totally relevant to this thread unless it could be considered another universe. I was poking around in the library today and came across a book called "Where God Lives" by Melvin Morse M.D. I haven't had a chance to read it all yet but I just pulled out an interesting quote he makes under the subchapter Universal Communication: "Now I know that many memories are embedded in the universal energy pattern and that we access them through our right temporal lobe. One of the children I studied summed it up nicely. When I asked him where he went during his NDE, he said, "I went out there where everything is. I could see everything and talk to everything because it's all around us all the time, we just can't see it most of the time.
When I think of what he said, it becomes easy to understand ghosts and angels."

[/ QUOTE ]

In no particular order -

OMG

LOL

WTF