"Betting only when you will be called by worse"

[brad2002tj]

vs. "you will only get called if you are beat."

I understand the concepts behind this but I have trouble seeing them in application. Can someone post some concrete examples? I'm sure I am thinking of this subconsciously but I would like to see some hand histories/examples to refine my thinking.

[Gonso]

Here's an easy river situation to use as an example:

You get dealt T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and raise from the cutoff, and the BB calls. Let's say he's a pretty ABC player.

Flop comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. He checks and you bet, then he calls. The Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] comes on the turn, he checks and you decide to check behind. A 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] comes on the river and he checks to you...

If you're going to bet here for value, you have to consider what plausible hands he can actually call with that you can beat. I'd say there really isn't much of anything after the flop check-call, maybe a pair of 6s or ace-high occasionally. So if he calls, your beat and your bet just cost more money. If he doesn't have you beat, he's folding and your bet was worthless anyway. And then, what if he reraises?

Another reason to bet is to fold a better hand, which is another subject on it's own (which would be difficult in this case also).

[Mook]

In limit, at least, the principle of "you'll only get called when you're beat" is most often seen on the river when the flop offered one or more draws that didn't come in, and you're holding a very marginal hand.

Example, you raise from EP with [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q and get only the button to call. The flop comes 10-high with two clubs; you bet and are called.

Turn is a blank non-club, you bet again (usually reasonable in this spot) and get called again.

If the river is another blank, there's almost always no point in betting your unimproved AQ again. Either your opponent was drawing to a club flush and will throw his hand away when you bet (earning you nothing additional), or he caught a pair at some point and will almost certainly call, even with hands that he wouldn't have bet himself (e.g. third pair, Queen kicker). Every time you do this, you cost yourself 1 BB with no potential upside when he calls with a hand he wouldn't have bet himself.

SSHE has an entire section on this (beginning on p.193) - another point they make well is that it's most important to avoid value-betting even decent hands against tighter players on the river, since you'll almost never win when they call. Loose players, by contrast, will often call down with some atrocious holdings, so you can widen your range of river value bets (though in my example above I'd never bet the river, no matter how bad a calling station the button was).

Mook

[Gonso]

There was a 7Stud example in ToP IIRC:

Say your four upcards were JJJJ for quads on 7th street. Even as strong as it is, if you bet, you will get no value from it since he just wont call.

The only exception is if he has a freak hand that is ahead of you (which he'll raise with in that case). So again betting is an -EV play... you will lose a little only occasionally, but you will never gain anything.

Sometimes you will be in very close spots, and you'll shoot yourself in the foot making thin value bets, but that's a balancing act for even experienced players. Good topic to spend some time on though.

[Mischman]

WPT example. Best i can remember it

The board was 3 flushed and had a 4 card straight on it. Player A made a bet and Player made a big all in raise.

Player A did have the flush and player B did have the straight. Mike sexton commented on only getting called if youre beat there. The guy wasnt going to bet/call there with 2 pair or anything. There was no point in raising because he wouldnt get called by any hands that were worse than a straight.

Hope that helps

[Yepitis]

It also depends on if you want to show your hand or see their hand. Personally I hate showing my hand, if this is good or bad in the long run is up for discussion I suppose.

[AaronBrown]

In addition to the answers you have so far, I'd like to expand on a point Gonso made. You always want a reason if you put money in the pot, otherwise you're gambling, not playing poker. There are only two things a bet can do for you:

(1) Get a weaker hand to call
(2) Get a stronger hand to fold

Most players devote their energy to figuring the chances that the other hand is stronger or weaker. That's fine, but you'll be wrong a lot, and with good players on most hands, you'll have only a slight hunch one way or the other.

It's much easier to guess whether someone will raise, call or fold to a certain-sized bet with a certain hand. I don't know if you have the nuts, but I know you'll raise with them. Good poker is much more about thinking the possibilities through than predicting other players' hands. You can't control whether the other guy's got you beat, but you can save money when he does and get extra money when he doesn't if you make the right bets at the right time.

Even more basic than the rule you mentioned is: know if you're betting to get a call or betting to get a fold. When you think about that, it's often obvious whether or not to bet; and in no-limit, what the bet size should be.

[pococurante]

"you will only get called if you are beat"

You hold K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The board is 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. You will never make money by betting, since no inferior hand will call you.

"betting when you will be called by worse"

You hold A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The board is 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. You will frequently make money by betting here. There are tons of hands that people will call you with. Not only will straights and flushes call you, but even weak hands like J9 will convince themselves their flopped top pair is still good.

[Taso]

[ QUOTE ]
There was a 7Stud example in ToP IIRC:

Say your four upcards were JJJJ for quads on 7th street. Even as strong as it is, if you bet, you will get no value from it since he just wont call.

The only exception is if he has a freak hand that is ahead of you (which he'll raise with in that case). So again betting is an -EV play... you will lose a little only occasionally, but you will never gain anything.

Sometimes you will be in very close spots, and you'll shoot yourself in the foot making thin value bets, but that's a balancing act for even experienced players. Good topic to spend some time on though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd disagree with this example, just on the little technicality that a player may mis-read your hand, may not be paying attention, etc. There is no point in not betting it, unless maybe your opponnent has AAAA showing, or 4567s showing.

[RustyBrooks]

Yeah, you should bet because he might misclick and call.