2 unorthodox hands - 15/30 limit.

[howzit]

playing in a somewhat active game preflop, but passive postflop. everybody too loose or too tight and the fish are stuck and reloading.

1) i limp A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] somewhere in early/middle. folded to button who is stuck big who raises. weak player who is stuck calls out of the small blind. very tight player defends big blind.

Flop: 8 SB - A 5 6, one club. SB leads, BB calls, i call, button calls.

Turn: 6 BB - 9x. SB checks, BB checks, i check, button checks.

River: Tx - SB checks, BB checks, i plan to check/call, button bets, SB calls, BB check/raises. i go into the tank...


Hand 2: i'm playing a rush and limp 8836 double suited in early position. at this point in the game, preflop has become somewhat tame. same button in previous hand raises, same SB calls, BB folds, and i call.

Flop: 7 SB - 8 3 2 rainbow. SB leads, i call, button calls.

Turn: 5 BB - 4, two diamonds. SB checks, i check, button checks.

River: 2x SB checks, i obv bet.

how's my turn play?

[BlueBear]

Hand 1: The pot is 10BB and as you only have a one-way hand, you're risking 2BB to win 5BB. You need a pretty strong hand to make a over-call of the check-raise. Furthurmore, there is a chance button puts in another bet, hence, I lay this down pretty much automatically.

Hand 2: Lay this down preflop, there is hardly any flops that are good with you and there are tons of reverse implied odds anyway with those non-nut suits. I think the turn play is OK as you have almost no chance to take it down on this type of table.

[howzit]

you would think hand 1 is automatic until you think why the hell would somebody wait until a river Ten to get action in? i don't get it. button is stuck for big money and should be pumping pots on the turn. the BB is tight so why risk two streets being checked through if he had a lock hand in one direction?

i can't put people on hands. i'm pretty sure 78 for the nut straight is out of the range of anybody so that leaves lock low, set of tens, and a better two pair.

as for the bluffs, i was thinking BB was trying to knock me out and button was just betting because we checked two streets to him.

[Buzz]

Hi Howzit -

hand #1 - As played, I fold to the double bet on the river.

I don't like folding, but it was an astute check-raise by BB and forces me out. I don't know if BB has anything or not. I rather doubt that he has the straight, but it's possible. And if I call two bets here, it could be two more before this betting round is over. Well played by your opponents!

But I think you made an earlier mistake.

I think you either have to (1) raise on the flop, tentatively planning to probably continuation bet the turn, or (2) fold to the flop bet.

hand #2 -

As played, I think your turn play was perfect.

We all know your starting hand is trash, but O.K., you take a flier. And then you catch an eight on the flop and even though you have one of your own outs, of course you're stuck.

And right there, in my humble opinion, you made the same mistake you made in hand #1. You should raise! Your object is to get more money into the pot and also hopefully knock out Button and gain position, one-on-one with SB.

Hard to say how that would affect the betting on the turn.

As played, I think your turn play was perfect.

You like a non-diamond five, a deuce, a trey, a four, or the case eight on the river, a total of 13 outs. It's 31 to 13, or about five to two (think in sixes to get there fast, about five sixes in 31 to about two sixes in 13)... about five to two that you'll miss, which is slightly greater than your fresh money odds (two to one with two opponents) for initiating money into the pot. So after having missed the raise on the turn, you're playing this strictly as a draw and the call is fine. It's only two to one fresh money odds to initiate a bet, but you have easily favorable odds to call a bet.

As it turns out, there is no bet on the turn and then you get lucky on the river. Fine.

To summarize, I think you missed two flop raises, one for each hand.

Buzz

[BlueBear]

howzit: [ QUOTE ]
as for the bluffs, i was thinking BB was trying to knock me out and button was just betting

[/ QUOTE ]

buzz:[ QUOTE ]
I don't like folding, but it was an astute check-raise by BB and forces me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's, of course, entirely possible that BB is attempting to knock you out from your high hand. I just don't think that this sophisticated move will happen often enough (especially on a passive table), and hence since the pot is small, I think there is insufficient odds to make a call of the river here.

[Buzz]

Hi BlueBear - I don't like folding here, but the threat of the whip-saw (both players, re-raising to make a total of 4 big bets) was the scale tipper for me.

As you note, Hero's only getting 5 to 2. If there are two re-raises, that is cut to between 4 to 2 and 3 to 2 (something in that neighborhood - not clear what SB does if you call and Button raises).

But although I do read this as more of a push-out attempt than an actual straight, and that makes me loathe to fold, somebody could easily have aces and sixes, aces and nines, aces and tens, or a set. And somebody could have the straight.

And then the double bet, one of them a check-raise.... in actual play, I'm going to always hate the double bet, but I'm probably going to call against some known players but fold against most.

Buzz