PLO 100 - playing a (monster) none nut wrap, shove??

[Elrazor]

BB is a solid player running about 30/12/3.25 over 1000 hands, Button is a donator running at 72/3/1.22 over 150 or so hands and is calling any 4 and any draw

im pretty sure TAG has a set here, im happy with my flop call but would it have been a better bet to repot the turn?? looking at it in hindsight it certainly looks like it and about 20 mins earlier i shoved a similar hand v 2 players and they both folded - its it good to vary the play here with that in mind??

Cryptologic
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $99.05
CO: $97.86
Button: $93
SB: $55.15
BB: $127.65

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($3.5, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $3.5</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($14, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $14</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($56, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $20</font>, 2 folds.
Uncalled bets: $20 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $56

[sc000t]

I'm raising the turn.

[tvta]

get as much money in on the flop as possible. with your monster draw you are a marginal favorite vs a lone set(with 17 outs to a draw you are a favorite vs a set - seems like you have more than 17 here). getting it allin here is standard omaha - you want to go to war. if say you only have 16 outs or less, then with the short unraised pot and relatively deep stacks you dont want to gamble for little reward as an underdog.

with a double flush hitting turn you almost have the largest amount of outs possible in poker [only a double wrap (20 out straight), double flush draw combo has more]. if there is any decent meat in the pot a raise is very arguable.

[Triantafylidis]

DEF raising the turn? Why are you playing this hand so weak, because of your position? People KILL for these kind of outs. Even if hes also drawing to a flush, youre abundance of outs here still leaves you in EXCELLENT shape. I used to have the same problem not wanting to bet draws like that, i think it comes from playing NLHE, but in omaha this is a must raise on the turn. You'll find that then if he calls hes probably calling river because he wont put you on betting a straight draw, he cant put you on those whole cards FFS anyway. 3/4 pot turn, call shove. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[runnerunner]

I'm raising the flop to shut him out if he is betting a bigger FD. After the button flat calls and the heart peels off on the turn, you MUST raise the turn. You have a huge amount of equity against any hand and you need to get the button off of his obvious bigger diamond draw. This hand is a monster, get some money in the pot!

[iggymcfly]

Raise preflop. Raise flop. Raise turn. Basically, play the hand 100x more aggressively than you actually did.

BTW, vs. a set you have 19 outs on the flop and 26 outs on the turn, enough that you can happily raise for value in both situations.

[Elrazor]

thanks for replies - i kinda realised how passivly i had played it when i was putting the post together, but didnt want to not bother posting it once i had gone to the trouble of converting the hand etc [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

i think playing good, but non-nut draws is a part of my game that needs a little work, hence the post

[Triantafylidis]

good post elrazor, i enjoyed it. I have used to have the same problem in PLO, i didn't wanna push draws for fear of what my action would be when they did not hit and the villain has called down. Its tough to say whether hes playing a similar draw or if hes playing the hand for pot control in case you do hit your draw. Good luck at being more aggressive!

[FireStorm]

I'm not sure about raising preflop, but for future streets, you can surely hammer this one harder.

[iggymcfly]

Nah, you definitely want to raise this preflop. It's a really good hand with low cards so you need to have this in your range so you don't get predictable and the fact that you have low double-suited cards mean that your hand plays better when you knock some hands out preflop to clean up your flush outs. In fact, if you were OTB facing a raise fairly deep, you'd usually want to 3-bet this.