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  #1  
Old 11-23-2007, 06:59 AM
Stevinchy Stevinchy is offline
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Default Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twist!!

Does anybody find this as outrageous as i do? And if so could you please post any convincing arguments I could use to put a case to the casino managers?

I recently attended a tournament as "The Isle" casino in Coventry,UK. This is quite a large card room for the UK seating 120+. They run what "double chance" freezeouts where for £20 (c$40) you get 2 x 2000 chips. You can take 4000 at the start.. or 2000 then if u lose them 2 more.. Until the first break. The amount of chips corresponds directly to the buy in. e.g They do a £20 ($40) where u get 4000, a £30 ($60) where you get 6000 and so on.... Upon reading the bottom of the new tournament schedule i discovered that you can also increase your starting stack by 1000 for an extra £5 ($10) which seems fair as it corresponds to the value of chips previously set. However there is a twist.. THIS EXTRA MONEY DOES NOT ENTER THE PRIZE POOL. It is simply pocketed for the dealers... I think this is completely wrong as they already charge a registration fee and they pool tips from the cash games as well. Also by increasing the chips in play but not the prize pool it devalues the chips that the other players have bought.

I think this is disgusting and when I confronted the Card room manager saying.. "why does the money not go to the prize pool?" he replied, "why should it? its optional you don't HAVE to take it." All i managed to respond was that the chips in play should represent the money in the prize pool. This is the best casino in the area and i would hate to have to boycott it on principal.. Please help me make a case to the management with your suggestions. Many Thanks... Steve
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:03 AM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twis

This is very common. Everything is disclosed, so don't look for them to put any of the money in the prize pool.
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  #3  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:11 AM
nineinchal nineinchal is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twist!!

I like the dealer add on.

This way I don't have to worry too much about what to toke the dealers if I prevail.
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  #4  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:16 AM
Stevinchy Stevinchy is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twis

[ QUOTE ]
I like the dealer add on.

This way I don't have to worry too much about what to toke the dealers if I prevail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that is a point... But I enjoy tipping well if i win... and also assuming a level playing field % of chips = % of winning... does anyone else think the players that do not take the addon are at an unfair disadvantage as their chips now represent a smaller % of the chips in play?
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  #5  
Old 11-23-2007, 10:10 AM
bav bav is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twis

Most of the add-ons that are used to start the dealer toke pool are intentionally priced such that you'd be a total raving moron not to take it. That's the point. They are trying to force you to do it, without actually requiring it.

100%, absolutely standard practice. It's the norm more than the exception. I know of NO tourneys in Vegas that don't have some sorta gratuity for the dealers as part of the buy-in or as an add-on.

For some tourneys, the dealer add-on is pretty generous for the dealers, but not normally. If the folks who go deep into the money do not toke, the dealers typically go home having earned much less than they would have had they just dealt cash games. So if you enjoy tipping when you win, feel free to continue.
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  #6  
Old 11-23-2007, 11:02 AM
Spiffysean Spiffysean is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twist!!

[ QUOTE ]
I like the dealer add on.

This way I don't have to worry too much about what to toke the dealers if I prevail.

[/ QUOTE ]

IN theory, yes... In practice, when they are counting out your money, they always pressure you into leaving behind another 20-40 bucks for the dealer if you manage to cash... It's quite the racket.

I do like the add-on as well, and since it is optional, you can't really fault the casino or tournament structure. If you are a good enough player to overcome the slight starting chip disadvantage, you will be fine.
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  #7  
Old 11-23-2007, 11:15 AM
Yads Yads is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twis

Very common.
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  #8  
Old 11-24-2007, 03:24 AM
budblown budblown is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twis

Maybe I'm retarded here but, if I'm playing in a tournament, where there is an add-on that goes directly to the dealers, I will not tip the dealers if I win, as they have already received a tip. My main concern though, is that the casino is running a tournament with this structure. From what I've seen (RR or other mods please let me know if I'm wrong) casino's that run this type of tournament usually don't have players that tip the dealers very well (which is why they have this type of structure).

Personally, I hate this type of structure simply because it shows that the players at that casino don't tip.
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2007, 04:04 AM
Gonso Gonso is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twis

We don't do dealer add-ons, and the tourney tokes are pretty awful, particularly with smaller buy-in tourneys. Even with the house paying me a far higher base rate while I deal tourneys, I still make less than dealing cash games. (This is in AC btw). I mean it's not uncommon to see a 70-person tourney toke less than $150, and even if it's a decent toke relative to the prize pool it gets split up an lot of ways.

But yes, these "optional dealer rebuys" are just a mechanism to make sure the dealers get paid. They could charge more juice and pay dealers more as we do out here, but it all works out the same. Choose your poison.
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2007, 04:52 AM
bav bav is offline
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Default Re: Tournament Outrage! An Addon Before The 1st Level..... With A Twis

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm retarded here but, if I'm playing in a tournament, where there is an add-on that goes directly to the dealers, I will not tip the dealers if I win, as they have already received a tip.

[/ QUOTE ]
Each and every tourney I know of in Vegas includes a dealer toke in the buy-in in some form. Some just lump it in with the buy-in (Wynn's $330, for instance--some of that goes to the dealers), while others use the "optional" $2, $5 or $10 add-on. Yes, some tourneys have started up without this and pretty quickly found that they HAD to include some gratuity upfront or the dealers would revolt.

So if you found out the house was giving 2% of the gross to the wait staff in a restaurant, would you refuse to tip 15% (or even 13%) because they were already being tipped? Some of the Vegas tourneys are kinda like that.

Consider the Sahara $42+$20 tourney. $2 of that $42 goes to the dealers. If they get 100 entrants, $200 goes into the dealer toke pool. The tourney will have 10 tables that last a full 1.5 hours and then start breaking. And it will slowly whittle down until the event ends after 5 or 6 hours. The dealers will have put in something like 30 man hours by the time it ends (just trying to estimate--may be a bit more or a bit less, I don't know the actual numbers as I've never asked anyone). That's about $7/hr in tokes on top of their minimum wage while they're dealing. That's a small fraction of what they make dealing cash games.

That $2 is a nice start, and it keeps the crew from starving if nobody tokes, but it's not adequate. The players who go deep really should scrape up a bit more. If out of a $4000 prize pool everybody tokes 5%, that adds another $200 to the Sahara toke pool... still not what they make from cash games, but not quite so bad.

In other tourneys the enforced toke is plenty. There are some Vegas tourneys that take $10 out from each entrant and the event lasts 3 hours with 30 players. Those dealers are doing just fine without any extra from the moneyers.

There are some rooms where the dealers are punished by putting them in to deal tourneys, and there are some rooms where that's a reward. I always try to evaluate each tourney I play in after I hit the money to decide how much I feel I need to toke based on how much I think the dealers will be making per hour.
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