1/2 QQ in re-raised pot

[amoeba]

you really should state how much is in the pot and how much is remaining after his turn bet.

sometimes its better to just check raise it all in on the turn as he might not fire again with worse and you run risk of him having hit possible 6 outer if he has AK.

[dirtysanchez]

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You have no idea where you are because you didn't bet the flop. You've really underepresented your hand to the river, so I'm calling or leading

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Well, I guess I disagree that I have "no idea" where I am at. I think I am either way ahead or way behind. That is a place to be "at" I suppose. Also, I think raising and calling a 3b preflop and then check/calling the flop says pretty clearly I have a pair and probably a big one, no? I think bet/folding the flop is going to involve mucking the best hand pretty regularly and bet/calling a shove seems awful. Felt like a right on the line certified wierd spot.

Anyhow the river was jack. I guess any broadway is pretty cruddy here.

So if you lead the river are you bet/folding maulik? Seems pretty risky.

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river J is horrible here, honestly id probably muck because TT/JJ is what we were hoping to pick off here. still not terrible to call IMO though. [censored] situation, neither play is hugely +EV. you played the hand well though not sure why anyone is suggesting bet/folding or bet/calling anywhere.

[beset]

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you really should state how much is in the pot and how much is remaining after his turn bet.

sometimes its better to just check raise it all in on the turn as he might not fire again with worse and you run risk of him having hit possible 6 outer if he has AK.

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Under what conditions would it be better to c/r ai on the turn, amoeba? Seems mighty extreme way to protect against a potential 6-outer when the second barrel on the turn has to have narrowed the range a little bit. Moreover, I don't even think JJ would find a call there unless he is retarded which wasn't my read, much less 99-TT. But maybe I've been away from 1/2 for too long.

I guess that is what I found interesting/noteworthy about this hand. With each succcessive c/c his range really does narrow.

If he is 3-betting me preflop with a reasonably range, something like 77+, ATo+, A9s+ KQs and then sometimes 22-66, 65s+ (though this is much broader then avg at 1/2 this is pretty common) then I suppose there is an argument to be made for value/hand protection with bets and raises on the flop. OTOH, there is no real draws, the board is low, so the worst I have to fear are six, three and two outers most of the time so if I am ahead I am not very vulnerable. Plus, he bet 1/2 the pot, it's not like i am allowing him to take a free card.

Then, when he bets the turn I don't think this is generally going to just be an automatic second barrel given our history very often. I think at this point I really am just about as close to WA/WB as I can get. He has TT+, AKs, 88, 98, A8s with the infrequent two babrrels with nothing. Then, on the river I think it's a pretty clear fold. But, using Maulik's logic (I can't play this hand passively and then fold to aggression; i have underrepresented my hand) I called even though I was almost certain I was beat.

I just haven't seen that many spots where c/c c/c c/f really makes sense with an overpair.

[PerDoom]

With previous history of you two battling, I would check/shove flop with regular 100 BB stacks. As played, check/calling down is fine.

[beset]

Even if you had two high card hands that he might have 3-barreled with this looks pretty grim (and I would weight 3-barrel % as pretty low).

Board: 8c 8d 2s 4h Jc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 75.926% 74.07% 01.85% 120 3.00 { JJ+, 88, AQs+, A8s, 98s }
Hand 1: 24.074% 22.22% 01.85% 36 3.00 { QQ }

[beset]

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With previous history of you two battling, I would check/shove flop with regular 100 BB stacks. As played, check/calling down is fine.

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stacks were 150bbs. amoeba said check/shove turn you say check/shove flop. value?

[PerDoom]

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With previous history of you two battling, I would check/shove flop with regular 100 BB stacks. As played, check/calling down is fine.

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stacks were 150bbs. amoeba said check/shove turn you say check/shove flop. value?

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Of course it is for value with you two battling around already. If you were nitting it up, I wouldn't check/shove though. With 150 bbs, I'd probably donk bet (and expect this villain to bluff raise a lot) and try to get it in that way.

[jumbojacks]

Meh, I don't really like a shove too much against a type of player that you described, though it's really different person to person I think. I think you played it fine and you could probably check/fold a river J.

If you think he'll stack off with 99+ here or at least TT+, then I think shoving somewhere is fine. Do you think he could fire two barrels with a pp less than 88? The bet sizing seems to indicate he knows you have a weaker pp and he's looking to get value.

...or CRAI on the river to rep JJ [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Also, if you think he has a wide 3bet range, what's his 4bet calling range? I think you can make a case for 4betting here OOP if you think he has a much wider 3bet raising range.

[beset]

thanks everyone