Pot awarded after defective deck found

[bav]

So I'm playing at Bally's LV tonight. My AQ turns a full house, and on the river the board puts a 3rd club out (9cQcAxQx8c is on the board). We end up in a 3-way all-in, with a fourth person who was around but folded on the river after calling the first $17 all-in, but not calling $300 more. Guy shows JcTc for the straight flush. Sigh... And he's going to get a $105 high-hand jackpot...

Except... the dealer counts down the deck and finds there are 51 cards in play. The Jh is missing and (1.5 hours later) never turned up. So all the final bets are still sitting out there along with the main pot as the floor tries to figure out what to do. I get up and tell him that he cannot award a pot on a fouled deck...that the hand effectively never happened and the betting has to be unrolled. He's on the phone for a while and finally comes over and tells the dealer to push the pot to the straight flush. I say "WHAT? What are you doing?" and poof...the chips are all gone. And the floor says "we're still working on it" or something like that (it's insanely hard to hear anything in Bally's poker room, and the floor wasn't exactly shouting).

I sit patiently, and in about 30 minutes the floor comes over and says the high hand jackpot will not be awarded. Guy who won the pot is now REALLY hot and lathered... he wants his $105. I ask "uhhh...what about the rest of us?" and the floor says "I made my decision, it's final".

So I ask to speak to the floor's boss and the guy who wants his $105 jackpot insists the casino manager be called. Casino manager comes down and next thing I know walks off into the distance with the winner acting like they're old buddies. I tell the floor I need to speak to the casino manager, too... Floor says "it's too late, I made my decision." I repeat that I want to see him.

Another suit has wandered down with Bally's rule book. In there is the section on defective decks. And clear as day it says if a deck is found to be defective before a pot has been awarded, it's all a do-over. Floor says "oops--but I made my decision and it's final". Other suit says "I wish I'd been called earlier."

20 minutes later the floor comes over and says "the casino manager says if you're unhappy you can call Gaming--he doesn't want to talk to you." My mouth falls open. About 3 other people at the table do a "say what?" I ask point blankly "are you telling me the casino manager is REFUSING to speak to us?" Floor says "that's right."

ok... Now it's not the $180 I lost. It's the principle. I told the floor before he did it that he couldn't push the pot. I told the floor as they were pushing it that he shouldn't do it. Exactly how is a player who knows he's being stolen from supposed to stop it? Jump on the table? Grab for chips? No... I'm being polite and using only my voice to try to prevent this and it doesn't work and I'm being screwed.

And one of the dealers then tells me that I should just drop it because it might get the floor in trouble. And the floor's a good guy who just got thrown into the job and hasn't had any training and he's really inexperienced. So I should let it go.

Now... I see this as an admission that Bally's is not giving proper training to their staff. Why is this MY problem? Harrah's sucks, and I'm paying for it.

So... should I call the number for Gaming they gave me? Not sure they'll even do anything for my $180 complaint. What has me upset is I TOLD the floor not to do it, and he did it anyway, and worse, the casino manager WILL NOT speak to me. Absolutely refused. THAT is the part that has me hottest. Just "we screwed you, too bad, go away."

Any thoughts on this? Will the floor get in more trouble if I call Gaming as the dealer was implying? Who else within Bally's should I be contacting (and how) to explain that it's not ok for management to refuse to speak to the players?

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
So... should I call the number for Gaming they gave me?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you're posting this from the poker table, it's probably too late for this now, and you're SOL.

But I most certainly would have THEN.

You might as well try it, what have you got to lose? I'll bet Bally's will gladly refund a couple-hundred dollars, to keep Gaming out of their hair.

[grando]

Bally's floor people are terrible

I'm sad to hear you got shafted [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

call the number

[bav]

OhGreat. I called Gaming just to chat with 'em. The guy said "we sent an agent down to Bally's but you had already left...But I think they gave the guy his high-hand jackpot."

So I've stuck around for 90 minutes after this incident hoping it'd get resolved. Ultimately Bally's tells me that it's all over, that there's nobody at Bally's that will talk to me about it, and that I need to contact Gaming if I'm unhappy. I'm clearly not in the right mindset to be playing so I leave. Only they knew a Gaming agent was on his way and didn't tell me? WTH?

[psandman]

Who was the floor?

[[Phill]]

You should have asked to use their phone to ring the Gaming Commission.

I have no idea what the law or rules are in Vegas but im guessing that GC will look really harshly at a casino which isnt enforcing its own rules if not for the fact it is awarding live pots with a known to be invalid deck.

If it came to it i would have spoke to the GC myself and i would have hung around till a representative turned up.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have asked to use their phone to ring the Gaming Commission.

I have no idea what the law or rules are in Vegas but im guessing that GC will look really harshly at a casino which isnt enforcing its own rules if not for the fact it is awarding live pots with a known to be invalid deck.

If it came to it i would have spoke to the GC myself and i would have hung around till a representative turned up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Nevada Gaming Commission seems to inspire fear in casino managers. They definitely don't want to be investigated for either fraud or incompetance.

I'd pursue this as far as you can with the NGC. Given that Bally's acknowledges the facts which led to you inproperly losing money in their casino, you should be able to be to get your money back in some way.

[PhatPots]

I would write a written letter or an email as well. Call again. I suggest email because it is easy and you have a written correspondence, its also very fast. Get a lot of info, names of employees, times, etc.

I don't care that the guy is new. He cost you money because he is 'new.' If he has to have some kind of discipline for messing up, so be it. But that would make me furious! I think there should have been some kind of apology and you should have gotten a comp. A free buffet, or a free ticket to some show, or something.

I think you might have gotten better treatment had you told them that you are in the process of calling the Gaming and had been a big angrier.

[bav]

Thanks to help from a friendly 2+2er who has access to the Bally's rulebook, I can report that I was wrong. And the Bally's floor people were wrong about being wrong.

I never got to sit down and browse the rulebook, but reading over someone's shoulder last night I did read the section on DEFECTIVE DECK and it says in that case the hand should have been unwound. But I didn't see the definition of "defective". Neither, apparently, did the couple floor people, because they were both agreeing with me by the end that the ruling was incorrect.

However, a 2+2er says he found in the rulebook that a missing card does not consistute a defective deck. And Robert's Rules agrees.

[ QUOTE ]
10. One or more cards missing from the deck does not invalidate the results of a hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still pissed the casino manager wouldn't talk to myself or the lady at the table who wanted her part of the pot back. But I can swallow that.

I actually feel a lot better that I was wrong and can reasonably just drop this. Like I said, it wasn't the money, it was the principle of the thing. And being wrong about it kinda makes it all go away.

Now I do find it odd that the high-hand jackpot payouts are not made if a deck is found to have 51 cards. That *IS* in the rules (I saw that one). Seems like either the deck is good enough and the hand plays, or the deck is bad and the hand doesn't play. It shouldn't be good enough to award the pot, but bad enough to skip the high-hand award.

I remain curious where the jack of hearts went. Bally's is even more curious, I'm sure. Folks were acting like this was a first for all of them. Most folks were guessing that it left with a player who took it intentionally as a souvenir. I imagine some poor schmuck in surveillance has been tasked with watching an hour of videos from midnight when the new deck was supposedly spread to 1am when this was discovered.

[Jeffage]

I would definitely call the 800 number and get this guy in hot water hopefully. He sounds like a true prick and I personally wouldn't care if he was fired.

Jeff