I almost always fold to 3-bets...when can I call?

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
If the 3-bettor is 32/16/4, 4-betting probably makes sense since his range is so wide

[/ QUOTE ]Here's the problem I have with this logic: Are we 4-betting because villain is loose and will call with worse hands, or are we 4-betting because villain is loose and will 3-bet us with worse hands, but will fold to our obvious display of strength? It seems dangerous to make a play expecting loose players to fold. But maybe I'm just a little girl when it comes to playing back at loose players.

The other problem I have with this logic (and not saying that it is flawed; it could be my perspective) is that knowing how often someone puts money in the pot or raises is not the same thing as knowing how often someone 3-bets. That is, he can be super loose and still have a 3-bet range of exactly AA/KK.

For a 4-bet to be successful (assuming we want a fold, that is) villain has to be
a) aggressive enough (which is not the same thing as loose enough) that he's 3-betting us with something other than KK+

b) tight enough to fold whatever he thought was good enough to 3-bet to our 4-bet.

It is hard to derive these two facts from non-3bet stats, but if I were a betting man (and I am [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]), I would think that the higher a player's VPIP, the less of a chance that b is true.

The other issue with 4betting loose players is, the looser a player is the more of a chance he isn't really thinking about the game beyond basic "I have a hand" or "I feel like making a bluff now" mentality- that is to say, your image may not have been considered at all thus far, nor might it really factor into that players decision to call or fold.

Of course I've been assuming we want folds when we 4bet. I realize that in general we WANT loose calls, but with so many people who like to slow play monsters and only 3-bet KK+, how comfortable are we going to be playing a monster pot after villain calls if our hand is only of moderate strength? But maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Should I be happy to play a monster pot with a high VPIP player and a hand like AQ?

Because of this I almost never 3-bet loose players and I only play back at the 3-bets of tight/aggressive players who seem to be getting out of line.

Just my thoughts. I think about this stuff every time I deal with loose players. I do go after TAGs because I know they'll raise with AJ and AQ and fold them to 3-bets, but I have a feeling I'm probably leaving money on the table by avoiding looser players without super premo hands. That being said, it's a steep, expensive learning curve to figure some of this stuff out, so I am VERY interested in what others have to say on the subject.

[MFM00]

"Another key to this is what YOUR raising range is. If you are constantly raising in position with a really wide range, people are obviously going to be more likely to play back at you and in that case you expand your calling/4-betting range a bit. But make sure the opponent playing back at you is capable of that kind of play or you're going to be up against the nuts far too often. "


For example, if you are raising on the button with 30% of your hands, an opponent might start reraising with something like the top 15% of the hands, which is probably a wider range than you have in mind as a default holding. If you, in turn, fold everything except the top 1.5%, i.e QQ+, to the reraise, the opponent is coming out ahead in the long run.

However, you might have wait quite a few hands to get that kind of read on someone. Against an unknown, figure that he will play tighter until you see different.