Never raise pre-flop?

[fuzz66]

also,these early morning senior games i found to be more TIGHT- PASSIVE rather then loose passive.

[KurtSF]

There is a definite type of player I see a lot live that I don't see much online. That is someone who is good to very good post-flop, but poor pre-flop. Note, I play only low limits.

Mostly I notice preflop callingstations who are very good at postflop play, that is, loose-passive preflop and TAG post. What you're describing is weak-tight pre and TAG post. My guess is that the games are bad enough that you can easily be a winner with top-notch post-flop play even if there are major holes in your preflop game. Make no mistake, you could make a lot more if you played preflop well also.

$0.02

[MandM_WSU]

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You gotta raise with crap every once in a while too. That way you'll get plenty of action from the loose regulars when you have premium hands.

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I disagree. You can raise with KJs, KQs, JTs, low-medium pocket pairs in really-multi-way pots, etc. Most of the loose-regulars consider these hands crap (they'd play them, but would never raise) and don't realize that if there's enough people your raise is for value. This gets you the image and is +EV on the hand.

Of course some people call with anything. I was talking strategy to one guy at the table and after 4 or 5 hours he leans over and tells me I need to limp with my good hands because its obvious that I only raise with solid hands. I laugh, and tell him to watch what happens when I raise. Sure enough within a couple of orbits I get AA UTG + 1 raise, and I get 4 cold callers, 2 that called all the way to the river. As I show them at the end, I lean over and whisper "Why would I limp when they're going to call? These people don't care that I only play good hands, they just play their hand" He laughs.

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Yeah, that's what I meant. I wasn't referrign to 72o.

[bige321786]

What if the game if loose-aggressive? (for example, during Friday and Saturday evenings, and people are drinking).
How much edge are you losing if you don't raise pre-flop, let others "do that for you" and out play them post-flop?

[Gap23Razor]

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There are two older gentlemen I play LHE with very frequently....I've noticed they both play similarly and both play particularly well after the flop. Both of them hardly ever raise pre-flop. One of them only open-raises pre-flop with QQ, KK and AA, and will never re-raise, while the other will ONLY re-raise with AA (meaning, he will not open raise with AA; however, he will re-raise with AA pre-flop).
If you play particularly well post-flop, how much edge, if any, are you giving up by not open-raising at all pre-flop?

I understand the theoretical reasons for raising pre-flop, but how much does that matter in very loose, usually passive, limit hold 'em games?


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Interesting question...but it seems that we would need to know how the hand selection of opponents differs when you bet before them, and what is their reaction to raises after them...i would imagine your raising makes mistakes out their choices to play low suited one gappers or unsuited connectors at the very least; or if they wisely choose not to play those starting hands, you gain pot equity...

do you have any feel for what hands they don't play when raised but would otherwise if no raise?

[bige321786]

Both of these older gentlemen are aware of when other people raise in front of them and will not call raises cold "willy-nilly," if you will. They seem to play a similar range of hands as a TAG player would, the only difference being they don't raise pre-flop. They'll certainy fold suited connectors and one gappers from EP and to a raise. It seems to me as if they're strategy is to see as many flops as possible for as cheaply as possible, in position.
I notice that when I raise before them (they view me as TAG, I'm sure), they will fold 9 times out of 10, and when they do call me, it will be with a pocket pair JJ or better, 9 times out 10.

"and what is their reaction to raises after them?"
they'll always call one more bet, but usually fold if it gets back to them and they have to call two or more bets.

[Bob T.]

They are reducing their profit some by not pushing edges preflop, but at the same time, they are also reducing their volatility.

This is old guy poker. Go to the cardroom, hang out, talk stories, and grind a little profit from your diversions.

It works, they probably are small winners, and they don't have to watch soap operas with their wives during the day.

They probably make up a little bit postflop, because their hands are disguised, but it shouldn't be out of your stack, because I suspect that when they do bet or raise, they have at least a pretty good hand. Only the unwary should be paying them off, but fortunately, there are a lot of them in most live games.

[Gap23Razor]

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Both of these older gentlemen are aware of when other people raise in front of them and will not call raises cold "willy-nilly," if you will. They seem to play a similar range of hands as a TAG player would, the only difference being they don't raise pre-flop. They'll certainy fold suited connectors and one gappers from EP and to a raise. It seems to me as if they're strategy is to see as many flops as possible for as cheaply as possible, in position.
I notice that when I raise before them (they view me as TAG, I'm sure), they will fold 9 times out of 10, and when they do call me, it will be with a pocket pair JJ or better, 9 times out 10.

"and what is their reaction to raises after them?"
they'll always call one more bet, but usually fold if it gets back to them and they have to call two or more bets.

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Thanks for the added info, i guess i really can't put a price on how much these guys lose in return over 100 hands or so...perhaps some of the others posters with simulators or analysis tools can give you the answer

and, as mentioned in another post, this strategy is relatively risk averse when compared to starting hand recommendations in most books, so there is the added benefit of minimizing bankruptcy...

I think these guys may be what Arnold Snyder calls "Cagey Cogers"...

seems like their play is otherwise sound, but unaggressive before the flop, and thus not optimal for maximizing expected value...as mentioned in another post, they are not pushing their edge pre-flop--that's their leak. You see, they are letting you and others into the pot with marginal hands--ones that could flop big for you (that is, you can play longshots and get the right odds--pot or implied)...stuff like suited connectors down to 54s and pairs to 22 may become playable for you as you can get in cheap and suck out enough times to have a net win over time--that is if you are wise and well funded enough to alter you play to take advantage.