100nl... QQ hu, oop, and deep... SIGH

[MasterLJ]

Bet turn. You are losing so much value by not betting because all draws check behind and you are good here so much more often than not. You also are missing value from any 9 by not betting.

Against most people I play I bet this turn looking to get it in, but you'll have to judge for yourself if your opponent fits into that category. The only possible K he can have here is a weak one.

[Tupacia]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet turn. You are losing so much value by not betting because all draws check behind and you are good here so much more often than not. You also are missing value from any 9 by not betting.

Against most people I play I bet this turn looking to get it in, but you'll have to judge for yourself if your opponent fits into that category. The only possible K he can have here is a weak one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is the only possible K he could have a weak one? I was thinking just the opposite because he called the preflop 3-bet, meaning if he has a K it's either AK or KJ, with KQ being unlikely because we have two of the Queens.

Also, I think betting the turn makes a lot more sense if the second card absent the two kings is a T or a J instead of a 9. In that instance, there are a lot more hands in his 3betting range that would have hit middle pair.

As it stands though, what 9s could he have? A9 is definitely a possibility, but even with giving him a wider calling range both K9 and Q9 aren't very likely because of the two Ks on the board and the two Qs in our hand. J9s could be in his calling range, but beyond that I don't think we're missing out on much value by checking the turn. If the opponent checks behind on the turn, we're still going to get a decent amount of value out of 9s and middle pairs with our river value bet.

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet turn. You are losing so much value by not betting because all draws check behind and you are good here so much more often than not. You also are missing value from any 9 by not betting.

Against most people I play I bet this turn looking to get it in, but you'll have to judge for yourself if your opponent fits into that category. The only possible K he can have here is a weak one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is the only possible K he could have a weak one? I was thinking just the opposite because he called the preflop 3-bet, meaning if he has a K it's either AK or KJ, with KQ being unlikely because we have two of the Queens.

Also, I think betting the turn makes a lot more sense if the second card absent the two kings is a T or a J instead of a 9. In that instance, there are a lot more hands in his 3betting range that would have hit middle pair.

As it stands though, what 9s could he have? A9 is definitely a possibility, but even with giving him a wider calling range both K9 and Q9 aren't very likely because of the two Ks on the board and the two Qs in our hand. J9s could be in his calling range, but beyond that I don't think we're missing out on much value by checking the turn. If the opponent checks behind on the turn, we're still going to get a decent amount of value out of 9s and middle pairs with our river value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's basically like this, any hand that beats you would have shipped it in on the flop since that's one of the drawiest possible and they have no motivation to flat call. Not only that but AK will generally push pre.

His range of hands that calls a turn (and possibly river bet) is pretty big, A9, TT, JJ and any one of the hojillion draws that are present.

The bottom line is that you are ahead here so much more often than not and need to get value. At times I just stop thinking about the retarded hands villains are floating my flop bets with, and start thinking about the fact that my hand is good here 90%+ of the time.

[kaz2107]

Master... so when u bet the turn is the intention to bet and call a shove or bet fold. and how much r u looking to bet on the turn??

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Master... so when u bet the turn is the intention to bet and call a shove or bet fold. and how much r u looking to bet on the turn??

[/ QUOTE ]

All of those questions are read dependent. I'm just saying that 60%+ of opponents I play I'm looking to bet ($59 is good) and call a shove.

Poker is a game of empathy, you are villain, you have a certain calling range here and a flop bet calling range, what's really in it that beats QQ here? There really aren't that many kings.

Against the nittier variety, or donks who can have some really weak kings in their 3bet calling range, I'm folding to a shove but still absolutely hate checking the turn due to loss of value. Most really bad players will have let you know earlier in the match what their CR all-in range is on that turn. I do so it quite a bit where dude has K8 here, peels flop due to kicker but then wakes up and shoves on a king turn. If that's the case than this is easy easy poker (bet/fold). I think you are missing value from so many hands, and are going to have to fold to PSBs on so many rivers to do anything else but bet turn.

[Vinetou]

I bet and get it in here against most HU villains. But this is a 6max table that broke down so villain might be a nit who isn't an experienced HU player plus you are both deepstacked and even in regular HU play (not 6max that broke down), there are players who will tighten up significantly when that deep. If this is one of those villains, you should go b/f because you know he isn't doing it with a worst card.

Just bet call without more reads.

[mike l.]

this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

[KexChoklad123]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there is no real answer. It is all player dependent and a player like Vinetou who is very aggro gets his money in good here more than a tight preditable player etc

After thinking about this hand more with the provided info, Im in the betting camp. Maninly because the board contains alot of draws. On a dry board Im more likely to check to induce a bluff from a float/value bet from a one pair hand

[Tupacia]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly my thinking. how is it that so many people can have such different ideas about this spot. most are saying the opposite of get it all in and thinking too defensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with LJ in that we're good here the vast majority of the time, but the question is one of walking the fine line between getting the most value out of hands like TT-JJ and A9 (which I think are pretty much the only hands in villain's range where he calls 3 streets of value bets) versus playing it somewhat more cautiously and checking the turn to avoid getting it all in when absolutely crushed.

Like I said before, I like leading on the turn more if the second card wasn't a 9 where the only hand in a standard villain's calling range would be A9 (and that's a pretty generous calling range). I guess my hesitation with leading the turn is how to respond to a push, because folding seems weak but calling also seems bad because his range usually crushes us.

[buckbomb56]

Bet>c/f>c/c