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  #1  
Old 11-07-2007, 06:45 PM
Chip753 Chip753 is offline
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Default Razz Heads Up

Probably you will find my question too fuzzy, and probably you will be right, but I don't find a way to be more precise.

I am trying to play SNG Razz HU, and my results are terrible: I win at PLO as I loose at Razz.
Basically I found that maybe I am too loose in my starting hands but I would like to understand what should I look for having a decent starting hands, playable against "Ante Steal".

I know that it depends from the kind of opponent I play against but I also think it is a general problem (also related with my approach to HU way of playing).

Thank you for any kind of advice. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:08 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

[ QUOTE ]
I know that it depends from the kind of opponent I play against but I also think it is a general problem (also related with my approach to HU way of playing).


[/ QUOTE ]
Well, first - are you a winner at Razz at a full table? Second, the best way to get help here is to go to the pinned thread at top, find the converter and post one or two HU Razz hands. Omaha (I assume you mean hi/lo)and Razz, are very different games, almost diametrically opposed.
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:36 PM
Chip753 Chip753 is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

I play PLO and I just wanted to make a comparison: in this period I use for Razz what I win in PLO (pretty sick I suppose)!

About Razz, unfortunately my bankroll doesn't permit me to play cash game full ring Razz in my pokerroom (I really would like to). I read on a page that I found here that a guy started to play Razz HU SNG so I am trying to do that.
About hands, sure I will do that, but I have the feeling that to analyze correctly Razz hands HU is quite difficult cause there are not dead cards and all the other elements which usually are fundamental to have a coprrect picture of the situation on the table.

It is curious that you wrote about Omaha Hi/Lo cause I think I have there the same problem that I have in Razz when I play HU: I don't find the equilibrium in looseness and rationality.
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  #4  
Old 11-07-2007, 09:22 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

[ QUOTE ]
About hands, sure I will do that, but I have the feeling that to analyze correctly Razz hands HU is quite difficult cause there are not dead cards and all the other elements which usually are fundamental to have a coprrect picture of the situation on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know what poker room you are referring to, but if you are online you can play full tables at FT for $2.50 and at Stars for $5.

As for analyzing your hands - I'm afraid you are badly underestimating the level of expertise on this board, and I am not referring to myself. Some of the most successful and highest stakes Razz players anywhere are 2+2 forum participants. And that includes HU Razz specialists.

Your choice, of course, but it's obvious to me you are completely clueless about, well, everything. So, take a breath, post a hand, and hope someone responds. Or don't.

gl
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  #5  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:05 PM
Chip753 Chip753 is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

No no no... I beg your pardon. Probably I did not explained myself in a decent way (maybe cause my english): if I had no respect for people that write here I was not here during the night (cause I am in europe) posting hands of a game that I would like to learn reading advice from these kind of people about you wrote (cause in my case "learn" is more appropriate then "improve").

I wrote about the fact that I tried to analyze my hands (I post a horrible hand few days ago) but I think it is quite tough for me to give informations cause I don't think I have good feelings to estimate in a decent way my opponents in this game (which is almost completely new to me) and if you don't have it I suppose is difficult to say something about HU.
So, if I woudl read questions about my opponents or his tendencies I would find very difficult to writ something clear and usefull.

I hope I explained what I wanted to write in the past post.

About the hands, this is a hand I played few minutes ago that I found interesting and (I am quite sure) full of mistakes.
About the opponents, really I have no clear ideas: I think he played in the way in which I usually played, which is stealing ante, winning small and loosing big pots. In this HU I decided to play just good hands and no garbage cause I was sure that my opponents would be something like a CS (as I am probably).

Tournament - Razz (15/30), Ante 2, Bring-In 5 (converter)

Seat 1: 1,500
Hero: 1,500

3rd Street - (0.27 SB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (2.27 SB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.13 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls

6th Street - (10.13 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises

River - (18.13 BB)

Vil 1: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (20.13 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot 604

Vil 1: [6d 5c 4h Qd 7h Jh As] (Lo: 7,6,5,4,A)

</font>


PS: this last HU told me something about my way of thinking about HU. I was usually really frightened to be killed by ante stealing so I tried to do the same but, in this last HU, I found that waiting for good hands and not playing like a maniac that try to steal every possible small pot is better. That's way I wrote in the past post about starting hands.
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:16 PM
Chip753 Chip753 is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

About Razz full tables on Pokerstar, these are Razz SNG, not cash, aren't they?
the fact is that I have some problems with SNG in general and I would prefer to play cash, even 0.04/0.08 (like Stud table in which I stopped to play following the advice of some poster of 2+2), but in PS Razz starts from 0.50/1, which is too much for my BR.
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:26 PM
Chip753 Chip753 is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

Few words about the hand.
I found it interesting not because practically I commited every possible mistake but because it is a good example of my past (I hope!) way of playing Razz HU: always thinking that the other guy, who usually appears as a maniac, is just bluffing.
... it is embarassing...
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

[ QUOTE ]
About Razz full tables on Pokerstar, these are Razz SNG, not cash, aren't they?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, regular ring games. You sound like me, no bankroll. But, the .50/1 has a $5 buy-in. I started playing there with $50 and ended up around $200. If you make money at Omaha, you can take a few dollars and try the ring games. See, the antes are .05, so you can afford to wait for good hands.

Yes, I agree that in HU you want to wait for some kind of decent hand and not try a lot of stealing, but I am not a HU expert.

Your other Stars option is to play the daily $1 Razz tournament. Still a lot of bad players at the bottom but they improve the deeper you go. There is also a $3 that a lot of European players are in, much better players.

Of course, you can play .25/.50 for $2.50 on FT. They are pretty bad, but you get the experience.
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2007, 11:04 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

OK, when you post a HH don't put your opponent's hole cards in. If your hand history includs them, take them out. When you played this, you couldn't see his cards, so the discussion has to be about what anyone, (me, someone else here) would do if they played it. I'll give it a try:

[ QUOTE ]


Tournament - Razz (15/30), Ante 2, Bring-In 5 (converter)

Seat 1: 1,500
Hero: 1,500

3rd Street - (0.27 SB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering, since you have this nice playable hand (8s are not so good in ring games, but HU this is very strong) if you might have gone ahead and completed the bring-in? If he has a marginal stealing hand, like (K9)4, he'll fold right there, very likely. If he doesn't and he reraises, you can get some information, like maybe he has something better than an 8. Right now, you can only assume he has at least two good cards.

[ QUOTE ]
4th Street - (2.27 SB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

[/ QUOTE ]
Now you can be pretty sure he also has a decent starting hand, when he calls a brick here, I'd start thinking he has something better than an 8 for his high card.

[ QUOTE ]
5th Street - (2.13 BB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what someone else would say, but I'm not jamming here. You have a made 9 and an 8 draw. His 7 draw, assuming he really has this, is an odds favorite on this street. I'm calling the raise - but not reraising.

[ QUOTE ]
6th Street - (10.13 BB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises

[/ QUOTE ]I think you are a technical favorite now, but if he hits his hand, even if you improve yours, you cannot beat him. I'm still keeping the pot small and just calling. My way is not everyone's way or necessarily the best way.

[ QUOTE ]
River - (18.13 BB)

Vil 1: XX: XX: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] XX:bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

[/ QUOTE ]So, you didn't improve, the opponent has been real aggressive without a hand, so I'd expect him to bluff-bet the river or even think maybe you have a J or Q in the hole and I'd call. I wouldn't expect to win it, but I'd call it figuring I'm 50/50.


I am personally not a fan of uber aggression unless I've got a pretty big edge and know it. Razz has a LOT of variance, within a game or trny and through a poker life. I'm a fan of limiting that. Hopefully, some of the better players will chime in and give you another perspective.

Welcome to Razz.



Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot 604

Vil 1: [6d 5c 4h Qd 7h Jh As] (Lo: 7,6,5,4,A)

</font>
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2007, 11:36 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz Heads Up

I prefer to let the other guy bet before I raise when I bring in a hand this good. He's going to bet nearly 100% of the time but only have a hand as good as yours like 20% of the time. Might as well get some money in there.

4th is fine

You are not a dog on 5th - it's even money. Whether you want to jam when you're probably 50/50 or not is up to you. (OK actually you're like a 51:49 favorite)

On 6th you're a 2:1 favorite, might as well raise it up.

Call is fine on 7th.

Personally I think you played the hand just fine.

One nice thing about heads up hands is that it's easy to evaluate them with a tool like propokertools.com or twodimes.net because there are no dead cards. If you are OK at estimating equity it's often helpful to think of worst and best cases for his down cards - and by worst I don't mean like KK, I mean the worst down cards that kind of fit his actions.

By 5th I think you have to expect he has 2 cards under 8 in the hole, probably 2 cards under 6. Obviously at best he has like A2. This should help you on 6th, because if he gets and 8 or 9 it probably did not pair him.
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