Basic Sit 'n Go Questions Answered Here

[Nsight7]

Sorry about the back-to-back posts, but I forgot to add in HU SnGs to my question above.

So yeah, it should read, based upon your experience, is it more profitable to play HU, 6-man, 9-man, or 18-man SnGs (NL Hold 'Em) and why?

Further, would you advocate playing turbos or regular if one is trying to maximize $$/hr? Are there cases of the above where playing turbos actually increases your ROI? This last question is based on my suspicion that in HU SnGs an exceptional player's ROI might actually increase slightly versus his opponents on the naive assumption that the blind pressure would affect his average opponent more adversely than himself, and due to the faster structure, affect them more quickly, thus lower their expectation and increasing said exceptional player's expectation.

[pzhon]

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Danastasio, the conventional answer is around 50 buyins, so you'd want a balance of ~ $1000 to be playing the $20's.


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Please forgive me for asking some questions that are not all basic.

Do you agree with that conventional answer, and if so, how would you justify it? Is that amount for turbo SNGs or regular ones, and at which stake levels, or do you believe 50 buy-ins is just good everywhere?

What ROIs do you feel are attainable at each level of non-turbo SNGs? How about live SNGs?

How much of the ROI or first place probability edge do you feel can be earned at each blind level?

[Collin Moshman]

CaptainSubText, pre-flop raise-sizing really depends on the table. As a general answer though, I tend to prefer smaller raises of around 2.5 BB unless I have 10 BB or fewer -- in which case I'll just shove. The main reason I like smaller raises is that I usually like to keep pre-flop pots small so that I can get away when I think I'm beat post-flop. The less comfortable you feel playing post-flop, the more inclined you should be to make larger 4 BB raises so as to keep the game more pre-flop (where you have the edge). One exception is low blinds where you are often correct to raise bigger at tables where a 2.5 BB raise is treated like a pot-sweetener (i.e., no one is likely to fold for a few extra chips) and you have a solid hand and don't want multiple players to see a flop.

Nsight, your first question is empirical -- that is, a good response would require the same player to play a large number of each type of SNG and compare winrates. Turbos will generally increase your $/hr, but since more pros often congregate at these games, your ROI will usually be higher in non-turbos. One exception would be if you were very good at late-game ICM-based decisions (when to shove, call an allin, resteal) but your low and mid-blind play was lacking. Then you'd usually have a higher ROI in the turbos.

pzhon, I do indeed think there are exceptions to the 50 buyin rule (although it is generally a decent answer) -- I go into this much more detail in the section on SNG Business Concepts in my book. STTF debates your remaining questions pretty vigorously ... the only thing I'll add is that I just played some live games in Vegas (mainly Mirage), and while live games certainly have softer competition than online, the astronomical rake (15-20%) and very shallow structure (starting stacks usually 20-40 BB) probably make it tough to make much of an income off these.

(BTW Nsight and Danastasio, I may be hitting you guys up for some split-pot tips [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] -- these games are not my strongest...)

[pzhon]

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pzhon, I do indeed think there are exceptions to the 50 buyin rule (although it is generally a decent answer)


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I don't think it is a decent answer. It's hard to reconcile a fixed guess like that with the mathematical models unless you feel the ROI is constant across a wide variety of situations, which would be a very surprising assertion. It's like saying that the time is generally about 4:00, but there are exceptions.

If you feel it is right to have 50 buy-ins for $20 SNGs, then fewer should be right for $5 SNGs, and more should be required for $100 SNGs, unless you feel $5 and $100 SNGs should give you the same ROI, or that typical winning players at those levels have the same ROI.

If you accept the figures for turbo SNGs in the SNG FAQ (I don't), then you should need about 4.5 times as many buy-ins when you play $3.40 SNGs as when you play $335 SNGs.

I can appreciate the idea that when a model says you are safe, you might need more buy-ins due to unmodelled considerations. However, do you feel that it is ok for nonmathematical reasons to use a bankroll that the mathematical models say is unsafe? Perhaps low stakes players mistake balances for bankrolls, but it is at higher levels where the 50 buy-in guess fails most spectacularly.

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-- I go into this much more detail in the section on SNG Business Concepts in my book.

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Ok. I haven't read your book. Can you describe the scope and depth of that section?

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STTF debates your remaining questions pretty vigorously ...


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I was hoping that you could say something authoritative based on your careful study of SNGs. Much of the STTF discussion is quite shallow, which is why I no longer contribute to that forum.

One common idea in the STTF is that you might as well sit out in early levels and let the maniacs knock each other out. This disagrees with my impressions, but I haven't tracked my average chip count at the end of each level while using my style of tackling maniacs, much less my ICM-estimated equity. Are you aware of any such analysis?

[Danastasio1]

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(BTW Nsight and Danastasio, I may be hitting you guys up for some split-pot tips [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] -- these games are not my strongest...)

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By all means.

[ArtSchlichter]

If your just starting out with sng's how many should you get in before you explore playing multiple sng's at once?

Would 100 games give us a good idea if we understand the various concepts that will allow us earn a positive ROI?

[Sir Folds A Lot]

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Can I come? I'd love to play in this game! Profit

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Sure man, but we already have a Scuba Steve who loves to push with anything suited when he is short stacked. It is a real donk fest, but when the cards are dry, you can't do anything to win. Rarely can you push someone off the pot because they're too ignorant to fold mid pair. Their ignorance is partly because they have seen others like Scub' play with any two suitors. I took a game last night, but it has been awhile. I think I am going to drop my $20 on internet gaming.

[youbobAA]

I read with interest your section on sng as a business, especially the part on rake. So far after 28 sng and 5 mtt I have won $111.60 and paid $90.50 in buyins and $10.10 in fees for a profit of $11.00.
The tournaments on the site I play are usually at least 10%. The worst are the $1.00 + .20 so I don't play them even though I have a very small deposit. Where are the rake deals that are less than 10% fees?

[DMC0627]

When you are fairly certain a shortstacked person is pushing all in with atc, what would your minimum calling hand be on the bubble? For example, I am in the BB with 1000 chips, the sb is going to push if its folded around to him. He has 500 so if I call and lose it will cripple me. The blinds are 100/200 so folding the bb would cost 20% of my chips and just about make me tie for short stack.

[MrX5000]

I noticed the book focuses on the 50/30/20 model. I play on Bodog sometimes and was wondering what opinion and adjustment you make on the 30/25/20/15/10 model (Bodog Beginner tournaments)?