Low-Stakes Multi-Tablers: Moving up to Career Play

[Collin Moshman]

Rusty, it is certainly the minority of SNG pros making $80k+ a year. Keep in mind that not all of the big winners are full-time SNGers, and could be making much more by increasing hours/week.

mattnxtc writes:

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Playing more tables at a lower/easier limit can lead to more profit over playing in higher/tougher games where your winrate goes down enough to cause worse gains than at a lower level.

IIRC, Todd Brunson was a bid advocate in cash games of playing at the most profitable level, not just at the highest level where his winrate was significantly lower?

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If you increase buyin and not only does your ROI decrease, but also your $/game, then you should certainly not stay at that level. However, if you spend more time concentrating on fewer games, studying more, etc. then you will usually be able to beat the higher games. This is particularly true in SNG play, where a $6 grinder with a sudden bankroll increase could find solid investments playing $100+ using vigilant table selection.

Lacky writes:

"Everyone has to decide for themselves where their comfort zones and goals are. If they are happiest playing lots of low limits games a week and making a smaller sum, but making money nearly every week, there really isnt anything wrong with that."

That is an excellent point which I address in my original post. While I wouldn't classify $55's as "low-stakes" (I was thinking $20's and below), factors such as risk aversion and other career/moneymaking options could make a perpetual quest to increase game investment contrary to your goals.

And Guthrie, the art of winning coin flips comes down to screaming "No deuce!" loudly at your monitor. Works regardless of your hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

- Collin

[DevinLake]

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Will your book tell me how to win coin flips?

Will moving up in stakes magically cause me to even occasionally beat a pair with overcards or overcards with a pair?

Do they have less than 12 aces in the deck at higher stakes?

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pineapple gimmick act?

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] That would be a whole lotta posts for a gimmick acct.

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haha...Guthrie is no pineapple. Pineapple was winning player that eventually had a long downswing resulting in bustoness(?).

Guthrie, I believe, has just always pretty much been downswinging or breakeven. He is one of the unlucky ones who was given a rigged account when he signed up at all poker sites he has played.

[TheNoodleMan]

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the art of winning coin flips comes down to screaming "No deuce!" loudly at your monitor. Works regardless of your hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]



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This is exactly the opposite of what I recommend.

[Slim Pickens]

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Good luck guys, and I will take questions in this thread about making a living from SNG play (75%+ of income deriving from SNGs).

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What volume of play (SNG's per month) does it take to "make a living" under the following conditions?

a) 12-tabling low buy-in turbos (below $20) on a major site
b) 4-tabling high buy-in regulars (above $100) on a major site
c) 3-tabling very high turbos/regulars (above $200) on any site
d) x-tabling mid-level SNGs (~$55) on any site... define x.

[Collin Moshman]

Hi Slim,

Here is a general answer for required monthly playing volume to hit your target SNG income.

Assumptions:
A decent living is $L/year.
If you N-table you can average around 1.5 N games per hour.
You work H hours per month, 12 months per year.
Your ROI at your buy-in of choice, B, is R% when you are N-tabling.

(R, in turn, is a function of N, B, and other factors such as your ever-changing competition. If you want to determine R based on these factors, I'd recommend a forum search.)

Math:

Then you play 12 x H x 1.5N = 18 x N x H games per year

Each game you profit B x R/100 $/game

Multiplying these last two terms and setting equal to $L tells us ...

Result:

H =

$L
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18 x N x (B R/100)

Example:

So for instance, if you can average 9% ROI 4-tabling the $55's and want to make $50k/year, you would need to work $50k / (18 x 4 x $55 x .09)
~ 140 hours. So you would have to average 140 hours a month of straight playing to hit your goal in this case, which equates to roughly 35 hrs/week if you include inevitable short breaks during the day.

The above formula for H is the general answer for how many hours/month you need to work to hit your target SNG income.
Clearly it oversimplifies -- R, for instance, will vary over the course of a year as you improve, face tougher competition, etc. But plug numbers into the above formula for H, and you have a rough idea of required playing volume to achieve your target yearly SNG income.

Best Regards,
Collin

[Kevin8423]

IMO this is highly player dependant, I would bring the same game to a higher level as I have at my current one. I don't think my game is affected much if at all by multitabling since I have been grinding for some time and slowly increased the amount of tables I play at once. My ROI would decrease, my amount of tables hourly would decrease, and I don't think extra attention would help anywhere near enough to make up for this. If it would work for others I don't know but I'm almost positive it would be a poor decision on my part. Studying until I am beating my current game well enough to justify moving up with the same amount of tables is just a better choice.

[zasterguava]

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PS If you are indeed a high-volume low-mid stakes player, PM me if you’re interested in potentially earning some free money/coaching.

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Please dont advertise "free money". Its tacky and ultimately BS.

[The Venetian]

I've looked into this whole moving up thing in Stars 9-man turbos a few times before and, unless everyone's hidden themselves on Sharkscope, there's not a whole lot of money being made up there. Anyone regularly pulling 10% at the $60's 8-tabling or more these days?

[Albert Silver]

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the art of winning coin flips comes down to screaming "No deuce!" loudly at your monitor. Works regardless of your hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]



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This is exactly the opposite of what I recommend.

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I agree. Negativity is bad. It is better to scream "Dealer, I need an ace!" at the monitor.

[dj32]

Collin - when you talk about reducing the number of tables you play and increasing your focus, how many tables are you thinking about? I'm curious how many tables you think an average player could play at once and maintain the level of focus you're referring to.