Bible Prophecy

[rwesty]

What would an atheist/agnostic response to this site be?

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/accuracy.htm

Text pasted below:

Accuracy of Bible prophecy
The Old Testament of the Bible was written more than 2000 years ago. Christians call it the Old Testament. Jews call it the Tanakh. Both regard it as the word of God. The Old Testament contains hundreds of prophecies about the future. These prophecies are not "predictions," they are promises from God. Many of these promises have found fulfillment in recorded historical events during the past 1900 years. Did you know that the Bible foretold the following events:

1. Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed.
2. The Jews would be exiled.
3. Israel would become a wasteland.
4. The Jews would be scattered worldwide.
5. The Jews would be persecuted worldwide.
6. The Jews would have a worldwide impact.
7. The Jews, and their national identity, would be preserved.
8. The Jews would return to their ancient homeland.
9. Enemies of the Jews would also reside in their homeland.
10. The Jews would have Israel again as their own country.

1. Jerusalem would be destroyed
Examples: Daniel 9:26, Deuteronomy 28:49-52, Deuteronomy 29:23, Hosea 3:4-5, Leviticus 26:31-32, Luke 21:24, Micah 3:11-12.

In Micah 3:11-12, the prophet Micah said 2700 years ago that Jerusalem would be destroyed and Zion (a central part of Jerusalem) would be "plowed like a field." Since the time of Micah, the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem, in 586 BC. And then the Romans destroyed the city, twice, in 70 AD and in 135 AD.

According to a text in the Gemara - an ancient Jewish writing - the Romans ran a plow over Zion on the 9th day of the Jewish month of Ab. The Gemara said that Turnus Rufus, a Roman officer, plowed the area of the Temple. And there was a Roman coin minted during the era of Hadrian - the Roman general who destroyed Jerusalem in 135 AD - that shows an image of a man riding a plow over the site of Jerusalem. The coin was intended to commemorate the founding of the pagan Roman city called Aelia Capitolina on the ruins of Jerusalem.

2. The Jews would be exiled
Examples: Deuteronomy 4:25-30, Deuteronomy 28:36-37, Deuteronomy 28:65-67, Hosea 9:17.

The people of Israel were exiled from the northern part of their homeland by the Assyrians about 2700 years ago, and from the southern part of their homeland by the Babylonians about 2600 years ago. Some returned after those exiles. But the people again were exiled by the Romans, about 1900 years ago. The Romans banned Jews from living in Jerusalem. Even today, the majority of Jews live outside of their ancient homeland.

3. Israel would become a wasteland
Examples: Deuteronomy 29:23, Ezekiel 36:33-35 (indirectly), Isaiah 51:3, Leviticus 26:31-32.

In Deuteronomy 29:23, the Bible said Israel would become a wasteland. The land has often been described as having been a wasteland. American writer Mark Twain wrote this, in 1867, about the land of Israel, which at the time was called Palestine: "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes… the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies… Palestine is desolate and unlovely… It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land." - from Mark Twain's Innocents Abroad. The Bible also said that the land again would become productive. This transformation has been taking place during the past century as many Jews have been working to restore Israel.

4. The Jews would be scattered worldwide
Examples: Deuteronomy 4:25-30, Deuteronomy 28:64, Deuteronomy 28:65-67, Genesis 28:10-15, Hosea 9:17.

Imagine that "prophets" from every country of the world had predicted in ancient times that their people would be forced out of their homeland and forcibly scattered to all nations of the world. How many of those countries would have prophets who would have been proven correct? None, except for Israel. Only one group of people, in the history of this world, has been forcibly scattered to every inhabited continent of this world - the Jews.

When the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans ousted the Jews from their homeland, the Jews fled to countries near the Mediterranean Sea in north Africa, west Asia and southern Europe. When the Europeans tormented the Jews, they fled to the east into Arabic countries in Asia. And when they were tormented there, they fled to west to Europe. When the Spaniards oppressed the Jews in the late 1400s, many Jews boarded ships that traveled to South America. And when the Jews were marked for annihilation by the Nazis in Europe, they fled to Australia, South Africa, North America and South America. There have been Jewish settlements as far east of Israel as China, as far west as California, as far south as South America, South Africa and Australia, and as far north as Russia, Scandinavia and Canada. Persecution forced the Jews out of their homeland. And persecution forced the Jews out of their adopted countries and into other countries throughout the world, just as the Bible prophets had claimed more than 2000 years ago.

5. The Jews would be persecuted worldwide
Examples: Deuteronomy 28:65-67, Deuteronomy 31:16-17, Leviticus 26:31-32, Zechariah 8:13.

Imagine that "prophets" from every country of the world had predicted in ancient times that their people would be scattered worldwide and persecuted worldwide. How many of those countries would have prophets who would have been proven correct? None, except for Israel. Only one group of people in the history of this world has been forcibly scattered to every inhabited continent of this world and persecuted in every inhabited continent. And that group is the Jews. They were scattered worldwide and persecuted worldwide, just as the ancient Jewish prophets had foretold in the Bible.

6. The Jews would have a worldwide impact
Examples: Deuteronomy 28:64, Genesis 12:2-3, Genesis 15:5, Genesis 28:10-15, Genesis 35:9-12, Isaiah 27:6, Isaiah 42:1-9, Isaiah 49:6.

The people who wrote the Bible were Jews. Try finding someone who could plausibly deny that the Bible is the most published, the most circulated, the most widely read, and the most influential book in history.

No group of people in the world has ever had this kind of impact on the world. In fact, write down a list of the most influential people in theology, governance, philosophy, music, science, literature and commerce. And then check to see which group of people appears prominently on all lists. And yet the Jews are small in number, comprising less than 1 percent of the world's population. Please note that the authors of this article are non-Jews who are simply trying to point out what they believe is plainly true to anyone who is honest - that the Jews have had a far greater impact on the day-to-day life of people worldwide than any other group of people.

7. The Jews, and their identity as a group, would be preserved
Examples: Isaiah 66:22, Jeremiah 30:11, Jeremiah 31:10, Jeremiah 31:35-36, Jeremiah 32:36-37, Jeremiah 46:28, Leviticus 26:3-8, Leviticus 26:44, Zechariah 8:13.

What other group of people has survived so many centuries of worldwide dispersion and managed to preserve their ancient culture, their ancient religion and their ancient language? None. What other group of people, after enduring 19 centuries of exile, has been able to return in large numbers to their ancient homeland and even reclaim sovereignty over a significant portion of it? None. Only the Jews. What other group or nation had prophets who said that their people would be exiled and scattered worldwide, and that they would remain a distinct, viable group of people, and that they would one day return to their ancient homeland and reclaim it as their own land? None. Only the Jews.

8. The Jews would return to their ancient homeland
Examples: Amos 9:14-15, Deuteronomy 4:25-30, Deuteronomy 30:3-5, Ezekiel 20:34, Ezekiel 34:13, Ezekiel 36:24, Genesis 28:10-15, Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 43:5-6, Jeremiah 23:3-6, Jeremiah 32:36-37, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Zechariah 8:7-8.

During the late 1800s, after about 17 centuries of exile, the Jews began to return to their ancient homeland, which at that time was called Palestine and was ruled over by the Ottoman Empire. A few million more returned shortly before and after the World War II Holocaust, in which the Nazis sought to destroy all Jews as part of their so-called "Final Solution." When the Jews reclaimed sovereignty for Israel in 1948, it was the first time in about 2000 years that the Jews had sovereignty over any part of their homeland. It was also the first time in about 2900 years that Israel was both a united and sovereign country. Has any other country endured such lengthy intervals of independence? Has any other country endured such intervals with the additional challenge of having its residents exiled and scattered throughout the world?

9. Enemies of the Jews would also reside in their homeland
Example: Leviticus 26:31-32.

In Leviticus 26:31-32, the Bible said that Israel would become a wasteland and that it would be inhabited by enemies of the Jews. Both parts of this prophecy have been clearly documented throughout history. Many Jews were forced out of their homeland by the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. Each time, other people were able to move into the land. These people often had conflicts with the Jews when the Jews returned to their homeland. When the Jews began returning during the 1800s and 1900s, they had skirmishes with the peoples living there, including the Arabs, who continue to live in parts of Israel. Perhaps every country in the world has "enemies" residing within. But how many of those countries have enemies that seek the destruction of the host nation? And how many of those countries had prophets who predicted it?

10. The Jews would have Israel again as their own country, again
Examples: Amos 9:14-15, Ezekiel 4:3-6, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 36:24, Ezekiel 37:10-14, Ezekiel 37:15-19, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Genesis 15:18, Genesis 28:10-15, Genesis 35:9-12, Isaiah 66:7-8, Jeremiah 16:14-15, Jeremiah 32:44, Micah 7:8-11.

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah also said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. When the Jews declared sovereignty in 1948, the declaration did not follow a war for independence, but rather a war for independence followed the declaration. The birth was peaceful, the aftermath was painful. Within hours of the declaration, Israel was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Israel prevailed in that war and expanded the size of the country by 50 percent.

[Prodigy54321]

in order for me to be confident in biblical prophecy, you would have to show me...

-all of the prophecies that were made..you must not exclude prophecies just because they have not been fulfilled..and prophecies must not have ever been excluded because they have not been fulfilled..I could make a bunch of prophecies right now and get a bunch right..it's not about how many were fulfilled, it's about what % were fulfilled
-evidence of when they were made
-evidence that they have all been fulfilled 100%
-evidence that their being fulfilled is highly unlikely (not very broad or predictable prophecies)
-there must be a specific time indicated or a time limit that has so far passed...otherwise, there can be no evaluation of the success rate.

I don't have any of these things at the moment

still, then we would have to develop a working theory of the situation....

this prophetic ability, although astonishing, would not inherently allow many inferences.

[MidGe]

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What would an atheist/agnostic response to this site be?

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LOL

PS: Use the search function on this forum before posting!

[Duke]

Considering that they did such a poor job with predicting the past (6000 year old universe), I'd be stunned if they got anything right. Despite the extremely vague predictions, and the self-fulfilling aspect of some of them, well, I still attribute any of it being right to variance.

[MidGe]

In fact, it is coming close to, but not quite as accurate as Nostradamus.

[ChrisV]

I can't be bothered doing a point by point rebuttal of this since it's so self evidently rubbish. As an example, note that he twice quotes Deuteronomy 28 in support of the idea that the exile of the Jews was prophesied in the Bible (among other things, he quotes it for just about every point). Everything after verse 15 in Deuteronomy 28, as you can see for yourself, is a list of all the terrible things that will come upon you if you disobey God. It has nothing to do with the Jewish people as a whole, but since it's a list of punishments, it's no surprise that he can find references to exile and persecution. If things had gone more rosily for the Jews over the past couple of millennia, no doubt he'd be quoting from Deuteronomy 28:1-14, which deals with the benefits of obedience.

Secondly, predicting the destruction of Jerusalem isn't very impressive since just about everything in the Middle East has been destroyed once or twice. And if you have a people whose holy book predicts they will resettle their homeland, it shouldn't be a surprise when they decide to do exactly that.

Thirdly, the Bible contains false prophecies, which are far more specific than the "prophecies" supposedly fulfilled. I've just posted about a particularly problematic example here. You can read a general response to claims of Biblical prophecy here.

Edit: When you think about it, it's not very surprising that the supposed references to the exile and persecution of the Jews don't in fact refer to the Jews. I doubt a religion would become very popular if the holy book said something like "Worship and honor me, and in return I'll see to it that you're driven from your homes, scattered around the globe like dust on the wind and persecuted mercilessly! Awesome!"

[Phil153]

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Did you know that the Bible foretold the following events:

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1. Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed.

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Name one large city in the middle east/Mediterranean that hasn't been razed in the last 2200 years.

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2. The Jews would be exiled.

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Considering their history of occupation, this isn't surprising

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3. Israel would become a wasteland.

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How precisely has this been fulfilled? It's fertile farming land with vibrant cities and large populations.

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4. The Jews would be scattered worldwide.

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Like the majority of the world's ethnic groups?

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5. The Jews would be persecuted worldwide.

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That's because they have a very insular and narcissistic culture that doesn't integrate well with local communities.

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6. The Jews would have a worldwide impact.

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As opposed to the French, English, Germans, Dutch, Chinese, Arabs and more? Your point about the bible is amusing - have you heard of Muhammed?

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7. The Jews, and their national identity, would be preserved.

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That tends to happen with insular cultures.

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8. The Jews would return to their ancient homeland.

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That also tends to happen.

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9. Enemies of the Jews would also reside in their homeland.

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The always have, and probably always will. Hardly a prophecy.

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10. The Jews would have Israel again as their own country.

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So their dreams came true after 2000 years? Nice one. I predict the Chinese will rule America for at least 100 years.

[arahant]

These are the best christians can do?
The prophecy of 'Israel becoming a wasteland' is particularly telling. It's apparently intended for consumption by people who have neither been to Israel, nor learned about it.

Of course, if Iran gets the bomb, maybe that one will be fulfilled soon.