Commerce 20. AJ - Continuation bet? - Page 2

Joe Tall · #11 08-15-2007, 05:30 PM

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Given your reads on the BB, and the action thus far, you found yourself a good place to call-2 preflop.

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I dunno, I prefer 3-betting this bc we should be ahead of the lag's range and CO's range as well and BB is just dead money AND we have position

allthough I don't really like AJ bc it doesn't play al that well multiway and it faces some nasty rio when we flop a 2nd best hand, I do think it's strong enough to 3-bet in this spot, it should help to make life post flop a little easier on ourselves as well

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Bloating the pot with a high ROI hand multiway sure doesn't make postflop easy.

chillrob · #12 08-15-2007, 05:45 PM

I think the fact that you are stuck a lot in the game might change your normal plays preflop and on the flop. If I am ahead in a game, been winning a lot of hands, showing down big hands, etc., people respect my bets more and I can often win a pot on aggression alone. People will even show me their low pairs while folding when I have bet the flop with Ace high. But if I am losing, people don't fear me and I have to showdown the best hand to win.

In this circumstance, if I had been winning I might reraise preflop like you did and bet out the flop I whiffed. However, if running bad, I might just fold preflop. Not because I think I am in a streak of bad luck or anything, but because the rest of the table does not fear me.

sethypooh21 · #13 08-15-2007, 07:41 PM

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Given your reads on the BB, and the action thus far, you found yourself a good place to call-2 preflop.

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I dunno, I prefer 3-betting this bc we should be ahead of the lag's range and CO's range as well and BB is just dead money AND we have position

allthough I don't really like AJ bc it doesn't play al that well multiway and it faces some nasty rio when we flop a 2nd best hand, I do think it's strong enough to 3-bet in this spot, it should help to make life post flop a little easier on ourselves as well

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Bloating the pot with a high ROI hand multiway sure doesn't make postflop easy.

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This is somewhat results oriented because of BB coming along. If he folds (ok, given the read lol at him folding...) then this hand plays just fine, (and Heis's 6max experience will serve him far better in a 3way pot than 4way).

In a vacuum, I think I play it the same. However, with your image, cold-calling or even (gasp) folding preflop might not suck, as you're going to have to show down a winner, and that's not the easiest thing in the world, 4+ ways with AJo.

Heisenb3rg · #14 08-15-2007, 09:34 PM

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Given your reads on the BB, and the action thus far, you found yourself a good place to call-2 preflop.

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I dunno, I prefer 3-betting this bc we should be ahead of the lag's range and CO's range as well and BB is just dead money AND we have position

allthough I don't really like AJ bc it doesn't play al that well multiway and it faces some nasty rio when we flop a 2nd best hand, I do think it's strong enough to 3-bet in this spot, it should help to make life post flop a little easier on ourselves as well

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Bloating the pot with a high ROI hand multiway sure doesn't make postflop easy.

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I dunno, I would have to say it makes it easier simply by increasing the probabilitiy ill be playing the hand with less opponents. This is likely going to be 3/4 handed where strong top pairs hold up a reasonable amount of time. BB is probaily coming in like 40-60% of the time to a 3-bet, but hes coming in 100% to a CC.
A cold call likely makes the pot 4-5 handed, A rerraise likely makes the pot 3-4 handed.

By 3-betting:

1) I gain positional control with the iniative allowing me to take free cards if need be (this board? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).
2) When I spike a pair of aces/jacks im going to the showdown most of the time whter I bloated the pot or not. The more people I bring in, the more likely these hands wont hold up...
3) I can assess where im at in the hand a little better by reopening the betting. IF PFR caps, I need to hit to win and can easily fold flop UI... Had I just CCed id have many tough decisions on low boards in a multiway pot.

On flops like 337, I want the 3-betting initiative because it allows me to represent a strong range by my c-bet alone. If I CCed id hvave raised the PFRs bet, in this scenario my range is pretty weak and he knows it...

I dont see how cold calling makes the hand play any easier.. All it does is minimizes my investment..

As a general rule ive found (exceptions obv):
in 3 way pots its middle pairs that suffer from bloated pots,
in 5 way pots its top pairs...

I think a hand like A9s would be the perfect canditate for cold calling here.. Even though we MAY even have an equity edge.

gaming_mouse · #15 08-16-2007, 11:54 AM

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Bloating the pot with a high ROI hand multiway sure doesn't make postflop easy.

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Hey Joe,

Can you explain this comment?

Thanks.

AragornX151 · #16 08-16-2007, 12:07 PM

I understand Joe's point, which is that 3-betting here is going to both 1) tie people in with weak hands, given the amount of $ in the pot, and 2) force YOU to continue in marginal spots for the same reason. That said, I still think 3-betting is preferable to cold-calling, due to several of the reasons OP posted, and I don't mind folding preflop either.

AragornX151 · #17 08-16-2007, 12:07 PM

BTW, with AJs, I like the cold call much more.

brick · #18 08-16-2007, 12:56 PM

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I have a LAGish image right now, 3-bet a couple suited connectors earlier, all showed down.. Raised two turns with open ended straight flush draws in multiway pots.. Both missed. Hitting tons of strong draws on the flop, raising it, then missing.. Raising a lot preflop and folding to any action.

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please post a couple of these hands if you can remember them.

checking isn't terrible against 3 opponents with a semi-coordinated flop. Change the flop to Q83r and it's a bet for sure.

Joe Tall · #19 08-21-2007, 02:11 PM

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Bloating the pot with a high ROI hand multiway sure doesn't make postflop easy.

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Hey Joe,

Can you explain this comment?

Thanks.

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First, this is one of the RARE times that I would call-2 in this spot. The action described, opponents described (critical BB desc), and the game condition (no one folds in 20/40), is perfect for a call here.

Keeping the pot small will punish our opponents postflop. This is fundamental TOP/HEPFAP type stuff. We dont have a HUGE edge with AJo here, we could be behind (bad players get good cards now and then). We can level our position postflop if we flop well with the aggressive player to our right that will continuation bet very often. (given the description)

gaming_mouse · #20 08-21-2007, 03:30 PM

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First, this is one of the RARE times that I would call-2 in this spot. The action described, opponents described (critical BB desc), and the game condition (no one folds in 20/40), is perfect for a call here.

Keeping the pot small will punish our opponents postflop. This is fundamental TOP/HEPFAP type stuff. We dont have a HUGE edge with AJo here, we could be behind (bad players get good cards now and then). We can level our position postflop if we flop well with the aggressive player to our right that will continuation bet very often. (given the description)

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Joe,

thanks for the explanation. I am still curious what you meant by high return on investment hand though.... I've never heard that term used before in this context. Intuitively, if I am getting a high ROI, I want to invest more money. That's why I was confused.

gm