live 5/10 NL I check-fold KK overpair on flop

McStinky · #1 09-12-2007, 03:36 PM

I wanted to post this hand to see if people would call me an idiot or see my point of view. I am reasonably happy with how I played this even though it seemed weird.

I am on the big blind with KK. My stack is around 4000, and most of the stacks on the table are between 2000 and 4000. My image is very tight and solid. Six or so limpers to me and I make it 80. Four people call. Three of them are OK players, one is an aggressive fish.

Flop comes Q74 rainbow. I decide to just check. I figure that if I bet and get action from one of the non-fish, I will have be a little worried. They will be putting me on AQ at worst, and since they limped in it makes AQ and KQ less likely for them. Since the stacks are so deep and the board is so non-drawy, I figure I will wait until the turn to start getting value from my hand. After I check the flop, if the aggressive fish bets I will try to stack him of course.

Everyone checks to the last guy on the button who bets 375 into the 400 pot. He has a stack of about 4000. In a live game this is a really big bet, and big bets in live games usually indicate big hands. Plus, the guy is betting into four people, one of which is a fish who is likely to check-call or even check-raise with lots of stuff and one who is really solid and could be going for a check-raise with AA, KK, or QQ. I conclude that he likes his hand. At this point I put him on 44, 77, 74, less likely Q4, Q7, KQ, or AQ. Other random hands are of course possible too.

The problem now is that because he has position, he will be able to put less money in with the hands that are beat than with the hands that beat me. So the math says that I need to be pretty sure my hand is good at this point to continue. I'm not sure enough so I just go ahead and fold.

AAismyfriend · #2 09-12-2007, 04:01 PM

you should just do this every time you have KK, it seems like a groundbreaking new strategy.

McStinky · #3 09-12-2007, 04:09 PM

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you should just do this every time you have KK, it seems like a groundbreaking new strategy.

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Did you read my post or just the subject line? I have KK out of position very deep in a live game against a specific lineup of players who limp-called preflop. I almost never play KK this way, but in this case I think it was fine. If you never play live deep-stacked poker maybe this line just seems crazy to you. In live games, it is often better to check rather than bet out because you can pick up tells and read your opponents' hands without putting in any more money. How would you suggest I play the hand?

AbreuTime · #4 09-12-2007, 04:13 PM

On what flop would you not c/f? Your hand, as played, looks like a weakly played JJ/AK or something when you check.

AAismyfriend · #5 09-12-2007, 04:15 PM

It makes it a lot easier to read your opponents in these situations when you BET and then you see how they react, rather than checking to see how they react.

McStinky · #6 09-12-2007, 04:22 PM

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On what flop would you not c/f? Your hand, as played, looks like a weakly played JJ/AK or something when you check.

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On drawy flops I play it differently because there are lots of hands that will play with me that I am beating. But on this flop, with my table image, it makes sense to me to play for pot control. I didn't plan on folding to one bet, but because it was the button that bet and because his bet was big, I figured I had enough info to get out of there.

ImNotSoGood · #7 09-12-2007, 04:23 PM

I suggest you do anything other than what you just did.

First of all make it more pre flop, how do you make it 80 out of position against 5 players in a live game, and one of them is a fish. Make it like 120 or more, in the live 5/10 games I play i would make it like 250 here and get two callers so I'm not really sure about your standard raises at the table.

On the flop, you can still lead, and If i lead out it would be for about 250 here since big bets often scare away live players, and they might even fold KQ here for 375 if i lead for that.

So yea, you checked, which is not too bad since you are OOP and you got more action than you wanted. But folding to that bet so [censored] weak/tight unless the guy is total nit, or you are just so sure that he has 2 pair or better.
Just check/call here, and donk the turn usually.

optionsguy · #8 09-12-2007, 04:25 PM

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On what flop would you not c/f? Your hand, as played, looks like a weakly played JJ/AK or something when you check.

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On drawy flops I play it differently because there are lots of hands that will play with me that I am beating. But on this flop, with my table image, it makes sense to me to play for pot control. I didn't plan on folding to one bet, but because it was the button that bet and because his bet was big, I figured I had enough info to get out of there.

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isn't this like the exact opposite of what you should be thinking?

McStinky · #9 09-12-2007, 04:25 PM

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It makes it a lot easier to read your opponents in these situations when you BET and then you see how they react, rather than checking to see how they react.

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I agree that it makes it easier, but of course you are paying a price for that. My argument is that sometimes in these games just seeing how your opponents act in a checked pot can give you tons of info. A lot of these guys are just there to have a good time and talk way too much, show their cards to everyone sitting around them, have extremely predictable betting and bet-sizing patterns, etc.

McStinky · #10 09-12-2007, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you do anything other than what you just did.

First of all make it more pre flop, how do you make it 80 out of position against 5 players in a live game, and one of them is a fish. Make it like 120 or more, in the live 5/10 games I play i would make it like 250 here and get two callers so I'm not really sure about your standard raises at the table.

On the flop, you can still lead, and If i lead out it would be for about 250 here since big bets often scare away live players, and they might even fold KQ here for 375 if i lead for that.

So yea, you checked, which is not too bad since you are OOP and you got more action than you wanted. But folding to that bet so [censored] weak/tight unless the guy is total nit, or you are just so sure that he has 2 pair or better.
Just check/call here, and donk the turn usually.

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I agree that I should have made it bigger preflop. If 80 will get 4 callers, then 200 or so should get one or two, and fewer players plus a bigger pot makes it easier to play.

But as to your last comment, do I really have to be so sure he has two pair to fold? If I call and donk the turn as you suggested, I think he will fold one pair or worse and only continue with two pair or better. So I win a small pot or lose a big one. This means if he is even >33% or so to have two pair or better, I am -EV.