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  #1  
Old 09-10-2006, 09:41 PM
drzen drzen is offline
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Default QQ caps and donk still likes to play

Villain is LAP, 68/9 PF but likes to call it down and raise with very good hands only.

My thinking was that his threebet range is not all that wide, probably close to mine, so when he raises my flop bet, he's mostly beating me here. Does anyone threebet the flop? Should I have done or am I right in thinking this is WA/WB?

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 3-bets</font>, 4 folds, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, MP3 calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.6SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.8BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10.8BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 14.8BB
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  #2  
Old 09-10-2006, 09:46 PM
DrModern DrModern is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

I 3-bet the flop.

If called I lead the turn.

If capped I check-call it.
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  #3  
Old 09-10-2006, 09:49 PM
KingOtter KingOtter is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

If I'm not 3-betting the flop I'm raising the turn. You put it off to the river.. would you have raised if the river wasn't a Q?

But y'know... this is Q's... Q's can be a bit vulnerable when a K or A hits, and I'll want to stop betting so much so I may want to just go ahead and get everything in when I'm still good, like the flop.

Yeah, I like that... 3-bet the flop. And the rest like DrModern said.
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  #4  
Old 09-10-2006, 09:53 PM
Sushiglutton Sushiglutton is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

With the reads u had the way u played it is the only one that makes sense.
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  #5  
Old 09-10-2006, 09:56 PM
DrModern DrModern is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

He doesn't raise your flop bet with JJ, TT, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and sometimes whiffed overs? You're probably about 50% on the flop, even when he raises.

Get the money in now; find out where you stand.
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  #6  
Old 09-10-2006, 10:19 PM
drzen drzen is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm not 3-betting the flop I'm raising the turn. You put it off to the river.. would you have raised if the river wasn't a Q?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a chance. I don't think passive players bet a pair of tens into a preflop raiser. I may be wrong but I trusted my read enough.

I'm curious to know your thinking. I already knew that some would call for threebets and raises. But I'd like to know why.
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  #7  
Old 09-10-2006, 10:32 PM
drzen drzen is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't raise your flop bet with JJ, TT, A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and sometimes whiffed overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

You tell me. Does he?

Do you? Do you raise my bet with TT if I've capped you preflop? I cap AA-QQ, AKs and sometimes AK against a tight raiser. More if the other guy is liable to raise light, but this guy raises 8%, which is about Sklanksy/Miller tight.

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably about 50% on the flop, even when he raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm about 50% against someone like me. I think I'm WB someone like villain.

[ QUOTE ]
Get the money in now; find out where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How will I do that? If he calls, am I ahead or behind?

When I bet the turn and he calls that too, am I winning or losing?

I'm not posting this because I think I know it all. I'm posting it because I'm trying to play better, and part of that is not just throwing my chips at hands I think I'm losing. So what I'm asking is, why was I wrong to think I was losing? Should I always push decent hands and not think they're losers ever? What should tell me they are losing, if anything? You see what I mean? I know the standard TAG response is raise it up and hope for the best, but I'm trying to see how you go past that.
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  #8  
Old 09-10-2006, 10:53 PM
DrModern DrModern is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

If I'm villain, I'd def. raise your bet with a lot of the holdings I mentioned even though you capped PF. Villain doesn't know that you only cap the top few hands.

I'm not sure why you think you're WB against villain here. You are sure he has AA or KK or 99 just because he raises your flop bet? Think about his range.

I too want to play my hands as well as possible and not donk away bets when I'm behind. But I need to know I'm behind a goodly portion of the time to play this hand passively.

The standard TAG response, as far as I can tell, is the right one here.
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  #9  
Old 09-10-2006, 10:55 PM
Marquoz Marquoz is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

I would have played this hand the same way. Having capped PF and led the flop, I have to put the raiser on a big pair. We lose to AA and KK, chop with QQ, and beat JJ (I very much doubt TT/99 here). I want to see a showdown cheaply, and would check/call the rest of the hand UI.
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2006, 11:13 PM
euphuistical euphuistical is offline
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Default Re: QQ caps and donk still likes to play

[ QUOTE ]
Get the money in now; find out where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising for information is bad. Hero should 3-bet because villain's range is way larger than AA and KK here, the only hands he would be behind.

3-bet flop, if he caps it call down unless you improve. I could maybe see just calling the flop with the intention of check-raising the turn, but I would be less inclined to do so if the turn is a club, ace, or king, so I think 3-betting flop is superior.

Comparing your line of getting two bets in on the flop, one on the turn, and two on the river, I am not sure if you can extract much more. I think we have to assume that the villain may slow down if we 3-bet the flop some of the time. But 3-betting the flop does have the advantage of getting your money in before an A or K hits.
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