Q7s gets a nibble

drzen · #1 09-05-2006, 12:45 AM

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

Easy call PF. The whole table are weak players, particularly button and BB, who like to call. Button has called down some astonishingly poor hands.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls.

I raised because this resembled the example in SSHE so closely! I'm doubtful I'll get a free card because button is a passive player, who I'd say has an ace if she's betting here but there's some chance because she's also passive and could well be scared that I have a stronger ace or well, just be scared in general. Do you find that passive players can have the fight knocked out of them when raised?

Question is, in this small pot, should I just be folding? Are my 6.5 outs enough to justify continuing? (I expect some good implied odds because all of my opponents will call a turn bet if they have a bit of the board.) If they are, is it right to raise to get others to fold? (These players are the quintessential SSHE player: they'll call a single bet on the flop with just about anything or nothing at all, but won't call two with a weak draw.)

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
Button checks, Hero checks.

I'm glad to check behind. I think villain will call a bet with their weak ace, so there's no fold equity here and a bet is no good. I'm delighted to have picked up the FD.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Obviously, villain thinks she has made a mistake on the turn by checking to the raiser and now wants to value bet her ace. That made me happy!

It's easy to be results oriented. Obviously, picking up a BDFD is nice, but should I even have seen the turn?

Results:
Final pot: 8BB

cold_cash · #2 09-05-2006, 12:49 AM

I think if raising the flop is right, checking the turn is wrong.

I also think the example you're thinking of in SSH involves a raised pot.

Point Blank · #3 09-05-2006, 12:49 AM

?? how is the button acting before you (in the small blind)??

Point Blank · #4 09-05-2006, 12:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think if raising the flop is right, checking the turn is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

dido

drzen · #5 09-05-2006, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
?? how is the button acting before you (in the small blind)??

[/ QUOTE ]

The converter is rooted. I'm button. Villain is CO. I thought that looked a bit odd.

drzen · #6 09-05-2006, 01:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think if raising the flop is right, checking the turn is wrong.

I also think the example you're thinking of in SSH involves a raised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the first point, would you mind explaining why? Villain is a calling station, who I am just about as certain as I can be is on an ace. Why am I betting this turn? I've often found myself mystified by your advice in spots like this. That doesn't mean I'm wrong but it does mean I need you to explain if I'm going to get it.

In the second point, yes, you're right, but it was more the general resemblance that I was thinking about! Same hand, hit the same pair.

Point Blank · #7 09-05-2006, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
?? how is the button acting before you (in the small blind)??

[/ QUOTE ]

The converter is rooted. I'm button. Villain is CO. I thought that looked a bit odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

crap ... you call with Q7s on the button with one EP limper, and a LP limper?

I might do that with a few calling station in front ...

well ... anyway ... yeah my previous 'dido' still stand ... if you raise the flop, you have to bet the turn

gezuz · #8 09-05-2006, 01:42 AM

This is different from the example in SSHE in that the "button" would have had to raise pf, and it should be a more ragged flop than have an ace in it. After the flop reraise...wait you put him on an ace? Then why aren't you folding? When a calling station bets out I just fold with midpair and a BDFD. I think I would have to check behind on the turn, because a calling station bet into you. Betting here would be spew because there's no way a calling station is going to fold his top pair.

Don't to bluff calling stations, it will not work.

cold_cash · #9 09-05-2006, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if raising the flop is right, checking the turn is wrong.

I also think the example you're thinking of in SSH involves a raised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the first point, would you mind explaining why? Villain is a calling station, who I am just about as certain as I can be is on an ace. Why am I betting this turn? I've often found myself mystified by your advice in spots like this. That doesn't mean I'm wrong but it does mean I need you to explain if I'm going to get it.

In the second point, yes, you're right, but it was more the general resemblance that I was thinking about! Same hand, hit the same pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're almost certain he has an Ace, which you say you are, and you're also certain he will never fold an Ace, how can it be right for you to raise with second pair in a 5sb pot with two players left to act behind you?

So what I'm saying is, raising the flop can only be good if he can have something other than an Ace, or if he has an Ace he has to be capable of folding it. If either of those things are true, which they must be in order to make your flop raise correct, then you have to bet the turn also.

If you think your hand is good enough to be raising on the flop with the pot the size it is, which I don't, then you must think your hand is best or you must think the Button is capable of folding something better.

If that's the case, and it has to be because you raised the flop, then you should bet the turn also.

drzen · #10 09-05-2006, 01:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is different from the example in SSHE in that the "button" would have had to raise pf, and it should be a more ragged flop than have an ace in it. After the flop reraise...wait you put him on an ace? Then why aren't you folding? When a calling station bets out I just fold with midpair and a BDFD. I think I would have to check behind on the turn, because a calling station bet into you. Betting here would be spew because there's no way a calling station is going to fold his top pair.

Don't to bluff calling stations, it will not work.

[/ QUOTE ]

She didn't reraise the flop. Just called the raise.

I didn't autofold because I'm getting 5 to 1 and I have an 8 to 1 chance of improving to the best hand on the turn, and I may also pick up a flush draw. All in all, I'm about 6 to 1 and I know villain will pay me off if I hit. So I think I have a call.

I agree that you shouldn't bluff a calling station. I didn't expect villain to fold. I'm trying to fold out the other guys and hopefully pick up a free card. The question is whether it's worth a bet to achieve that.