Why Im no longer an ACist

[plzleenowhammy]

The op is a level right? I haven't read the whole thread but it seems like a level.

[foal]

Another thing I don't get is how you can have such an absolute notion of property rights, with no government to enforce them. I mean it doesn't really matter what you think is legitimate or not if you can't make everyone else agree with you under the absence of government.

[tomdemaine]

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Another thing I don't get is how you can have such an absolute notion of property rights, with no government to enforce them.

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[natedogg]

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1) Acists love to talk about how goverments coerce us into doing stuff we dont like, however they dont like it that much when somebody points out that there really isnt much freedom is youre born in a poor family get an horrible informal and formal education and you are never able to develop any significant skill you are preety much screwed , its basically work on something you hate or die, yes I know youre not dying because a moral agent is stabbing you but ure still dying, the problems are not going to go away because theyre not made by a moral agent. Society as a whole has to make the desition wheter its worth to increase “the coercion done by moral agents” in order to decrease the negative impact of “ the coercion not done by moral agents”, I cant really show my calculations but I can intuitively recognize that perhaps the ideal amount of coercion isnt 0, its called common sense.

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This is a very well made and interestingly put point.

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It's called the No True Scotsman fallacy.


natedogg

[tolbiny]

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Let me just add really quick, I am no longer an advocate of democracy. It's time and age is gone. There was a time when it became needed, in order to increase effeciency to elect representatives. This is no longer the case. Anyone can choose to rep himself of ask anyone to represent him. Democracy was fantastic for the era of the recent past.

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This actually makes you a fan of democracy, just not a fan of representative democracy.

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Not as long as the majority gets its way at the expense of the minority.

[owsley]

Concerning issues like #1 and poverty, I think it is worth noting that in my mid teens I was a pretty vocal socialist who cared a lot about inequality and the disadvantages that so many people are born with. Over the couple years it took to transform me to an ACist, I never stopped caring about those issues, but I saw just how much the government hurts poor people and creates poverty by interfering with the free market. I would say there were two main things that made me a voluntaryist/ACist, one would be valuing people's freedom and opposing state coercion and the other was believing how much economic suffering our government creates. I would love to believe that some universal entity could provide healthcare and food and education and clean water to everyone, but I can't.

I am not saying that ACists are universally correct but I think a lot of people would be well served by taking a step back and realizing, "Hey, the ACists I am arguing used to be statists/socialists like me who started out thinking about politics because they were sickened by the poverty they saw on an everyday basis, they used to strongly hold the positions I hold now but then were exposed to a different theory of human government and became convinced by that, and no where along the line did they start hating poor people or want to abolish the government so the rich could continue raping people." Just something people should consider.

I just turned 20, I was raised in a very politically conscious academic family and have holding strong views about political issues since I was 11. Since then I am probably on my 3rd political worldview, I have abandoned beliefs I was %100 confident were true multiple times, and I have zero reason to believe that in as short as 2 years from now I will look back on my posts today and thinking "Wow, what the [censored] was I thinking?" Over thanksgiving break I saw some old friends who I used to talk about politics with, they have hardly changed their views one bit in their years and college and I certainly have. One of them said to me, "So are you admitting your arguments you used when we were 17 we wrong?" That is a completely backwards way of thinking about things in my opinion. I am proud that my views have been able to evolve and I think it reflects negatively on them that theirs have not. I consider myself a very intelligent person and have the academic credentials as proof to back that statement up (imo), but the more I think about things the more I am still pretty young and stupid. Less young and stupid as when I was 16, but if I am not less young and stupid by the time I am 25 I will be pretty [censored] pissed off. I think that in the format and clientele of internet messageboards almost directly blocks the concept I am talking about, and while it is a useful tool and a lot can be learned here, I think the majority of posters here have fallen into a rut of sorts. I find this fault in many people I agree with 90% of the time. Just an idea that I think is wildly underrepresented here and too often forgotten due to people just being eager to tell the other side how much of an imbecile they are.

[Misfire]

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Secondly. my seduction rested on reading third rate novels, similar in their romantic approach to, and no better in their literary values than, the Louis L'Amour novels available at the airport. I mean, of course, "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .

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Ayn Rand was not an anarchist and wrote rather stinging criticisms about anarchist thought.

[foal]

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Another thing I don't get is how you can have such an absolute notion of property rights, with no government to enforce them.

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lol. I apologize, that was off topic.

[foal]

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1) Acists love to talk about how goverments coerce us into doing stuff we dont like, however they dont like it that much when somebody points out that there really isnt much freedom is youre born in a poor family get an horrible informal and formal education and you are never able to develop any significant skill you are preety much screwed , its basically work on something you hate or die, yes I know youre not dying because a moral agent is stabbing you but ure still dying, the problems are not going to go away because theyre not made by a moral agent. Society as a whole has to make the desition wheter its worth to increase “the coercion done by moral agents” in order to decrease the negative impact of “ the coercion not done by moral agents”, I cant really show my calculations but I can intuitively recognize that perhaps the ideal amount of coercion isnt 0, its called common sense.

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This is a very well made and interestingly put point.

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It's called the No True Scotsman fallacy.


natedogg

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Not sure how that applies?

[TomCollins]

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1) Acists love to talk about how goverments coerce us into doing stuff we dont like, however they dont like it that much when somebody points out that there really isnt much freedom is youre born in a poor family get an horrible informal and formal education and you are never able to develop any significant skill you are preety much screwed , its basically work on something you hate or die, yes I know youre not dying because a moral agent is stabbing you but ure still dying, the problems are not going to go away because theyre not made by a moral agent. Society as a whole has to make the desition wheter its worth to increase “the coercion done by moral agents” in order to decrease the negative impact of “ the coercion not done by moral agents”, I cant really show my calculations but I can intuitively recognize that perhaps the ideal amount of coercion isnt 0, its called common sense.

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This is a very well made and interestingly put point.

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It's called the No True Scotsman fallacy.


natedogg

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Not sure how that applies?

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valenzeula: ACists believe don't believe in freedom
ACists: Yes they do, they do not support coersion on someone.
valenzeula: Well, by true freedom, I mean the freedom to not be hungry and live forever.

He is twisting the definition of freedom beyond what is accepted and implied.