PSA: EVERYONE READ

[Grunch]

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I guess what I am saying is that the guys that really want to improve will absorb the criticize and barbs and get better. Sure we run off a few posters with thin skins, but that's part of life.

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I agree in principal. Noobs, you are definitely welcomed here, but you have to be aware that you are trying to insert yourself in to an established society. The society isn't going to change to meet your expectations -- you have to adapt to meet the society's expectations.

This means you are going to recieve advice that is brief, not thoroughly explained, and often appears to not be advice but be an insult to your character. For example, if you post a hand in which you are considering folding KK preflop where everyone has < 100bbs, you may well recieve responses like, "you should quit poker," or "lolo moran." These are not kind responses, but beneath the harsh shell is the kernel of advice you need. No, I don't mean you should quit poker. The advice you are being given here is that folding is an egregious error. Such a big error in fact, it's laughable. But nobody knows anything until they learn it for the first time, and "you should quit poker" is the way that you will be taught this by some people in SSNL. You are being told that folding is a mistake. What you aren't being told -- and this will be very hard to learn -- is why it is a mistake. This is being left as an excercise for you to figure out. You will very occasionally have a vet spell this out for you. The advice is there someplace, buried in the archives. You have to do the research and figure out through your own resources why folding is bad.

Again, this doesn't mean you're unwelcomed here. But it does require a great deal of effort on your parts. You must be willing to recieve this harsh advice and figure it out for yourself. You won't be spoonfed basic advice here all the time. There are books for that. But you will be given a forum to ask your basic questions or vet out your own untested advice and be challenged. Whether or not you can endure this is up to you. The fact is that most of you won't pass this test. But for those who can learn to learn in a hostile environment (just like poker) the rewards can be pretty great. Brilliant minds inhabit these forums.

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The question that mods need to be asking themselves is: Should we be moving some of the basic SSNL threads (3-bet with AK) to uNL? I'd be very interested to hear Ed and matrix comment on that. Also, I think that locking threads and pointing the offending OP to the Master Sticky is another approach worth thinking about.

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OK, you didn't aske me, but when has that stopped me. Doing these things certianly can't hurt, and will probably help on at least some level. But I agree with some other poster (not sure who, sorry) who said that the "problem" of noobs and basic strategic posts generating noise is a very small part of why SSNL is in a down-phase. Doing the above will help to fix this problem, but it's a small problem.

IMO there's a much bigger question that the mods should be asking themselves. That question is why are the regs not posting strat advice anymore? My feeling is -- and this has never been a secret, at least in the mod forum -- that the viability of any forum depends more than anything on the top 5% or 10% of posters in that forum -- the established, respected regulars, including both greens & blues. The other 90% of posters can be giving terrible advice, behaving badly, and generally being bad for the forum. But if the regs have control of the spirit and flow of the forum, continue to provide drops of signal in a sea of noise, and help to make the forum a community, then the forum will be healthy.

If SSNL is losing its regs, then that is a major problem. The question that mods should be asking themselves is why is this happening?

[4_2_it]

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The question that mods should be asking themselves is why is this happening?

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Agreed.

I think that Matt Flynn's book will bring some new posters in and maybe get a few of the old regulars (pokey!) back.

[Sciolist]

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For example, if you post a hand in which you are considering folding KK preflop where everyone has < 100bbs, you may well recieve responses like, "you should quit poker," or "lolo moran." These are not kind responses, but beneath the harsh shell is the kernel of advice you need

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This is pretty much how I found MSNL (my introduction to these forums): People could be pretty rude, but they were generally right, or at least able to expand their arguments if you started a debate on it. I don't really have a problem with this approach to learning the game.

[Jay Riall]

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The question that mods should be asking themselves is why is this happening?

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Agreed.

I think that Matt Flynn's book will bring some new posters in and maybe get a few of the old regulars (pokey!) back.

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Nooooo too many numbers for my small brain to comprehend!

[Al_Money]

Just some random thoughts:

-Games are tougher. There are 2+2ers at pretty much every table. This is why HSNL, MSNL, and now SSNL are all slowly deteriorating in terms of advice given. When games were great, people were happy to give advice because directly helping your opponent wasn't that big of a deal, and there were plenty of fish to go around. Nowadays, not so much.

-The cheese thread/bbv attitude carries over into the strategy threads, and I admit I've been guilty of this at times, but its a much different atmosphere compared to a couple years ago.

[EMc]

42it,

the AK 3 bet question is asked often in uNL too. However, basic SSNL is welcome in uNL as basic MSNL is welcome in SSNL. I think it will help both parties.

gtr,

I dont recall you ever being flamed, I usually keep a close eye on that (or try to) and warn posters accordingly.

all,

The reason the regs are leaving is twofold: a. They are getting older and tired of poker (fim, Dbitel, pokey) or have moved up (tufat, snowbank). Typically other posters who were formally n00bs come to replace them. However, with uNL, many posters are starting there and becoming regs there as opposed to here.

[Grunch]

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42it I think you're just wrong here. The forums are divided up by big blind, which effects the way the hands are played, not divided up by the quality of the posts or posters. So moving a 200nl should I 3bet AK here hand doesn't help anyone since those who play 25nl won't have a clue.


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42it isn't wrong, you are. The forums are divided by blind size only arbitrarily. The true division of the forums is that uNL is for basic & beginner strategic advice, SSNL is for advanced preflop and intermediate postflop play, and MSNL and HSNL are for advanced discussions. That was the intention behind the different forums, but it's impossible to come up with a concrete guideline for such an ambigious distinction. If the distinction wasn't concrete for instance, noobs will often post thier basic hands in a higher-level forum simply because they want advice from "better" players in the higher forums.

One more thing, and I hope you don't misunderstand me. 42it is a moderator of this forum, and has been a major presence in SSNL for a very long time. He is keenly aware of what the divisions are and why they are the way they are. You on the other hand are brand new to these forums, have almost nothing invested in them, and have no part in thier history. Why would you think that you are more right that 42 in this? I'm not saying this to insult you. I'm trying to make clear some big differences in persepctive.

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I don't know what so many people here are ignorting this fact: if you don't want to read about another AK hand- dont! Or don't reply. No one is forcing you to. There's a lot of crap on TV but I don't blame anyone, I just don't watch what I don't like.

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There's a big difference between noise in the forum and noise on TV. The noise on TV is on another channel. You do not have to watch "America's Next Top Model" before or while watching "High Stakes Poker." Moreover, "Model" being shown tonight doesn't make "HSP" shorter than usual. In the forum, when people post basic hands in SSNL, both these things are true. You have to get past the basic posts in order to find the less basic ones, and the time people spend on the basic posts is time they don't spend on the less basic ones. That's why basic posts in an intermediate forum are noise.

[yundmi]

I think there was a significant increase in the average online poker skill level up until about maybe February, and then it just sort of plateau'ed. I also think this is reflected in SSNL.

[cbloom]

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-The cheese thread/bbv attitude carries over into the strategy threads, and I admit I've been guilty of this at times, but its a much different atmosphere compared to a couple years ago.


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I've definitely noticed this, there seems to be a lot of people with a different attitude. One of the great things about SSNL (during my time) was that it was relatively free of the berating/leveling attitude that infests the rest of 2+2.

[Logun]

what/where is uNL ?