200PLO inside straight flush draw flop

[Vinetou]

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($87.25)
Button ($244.55)
SB ($283.90)
BB ($201.60)
UTG ($124.40)
Hero ($274.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $9</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $9, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $7.

Flop: ($30) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $22</font>, UTG calls $22, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $116.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $235.55</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $119.05.



I think I played this hand like an idiot. At least I should fold after he moved in, but I felt commited.

Villain made a bet everytime (like 5 times maybe to me) I raised preflop and then checked the flop (all of those times it was low middle drawy flop, something like that one). I thought that he might be trying to run me over since he put me on big cards that were scared of that flop. That's why I decided to checkraise him on the flop. I called his reraise then (he took a while before reraising) because I felt commited.

Your thoughts? I won't mind if you tell me I played it like an idiot. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[sc000t]

Being the preflop raiser, I lead out when checked too here.

Once you check, I like the raise. You wan't to get a better flush draws out if at all possible.

Folding after your c/r is very bad.

[Vinetou]

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Being the preflop raiser, I lead out when checked too here.

Once you check, I like the raise. You wan't to get a better flush draws out if at all possible.

Folding after your c/r is very bad.

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If you bet and get raised, do you push? I am worried about higher flush draws here.

[crashwhips]

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If you bet and get raised, do you push? I am worried about higher flush draws here.

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In the heat of the moment, I'd probably push and hope I had my full 15 outs rather than 8 or less, but the right move is probably to fold. You're barely getting the right odds if he has a set and I think you get shown a higher flush draw (often with a couple of your straight outs) too much to make pushing profitable, unless you feel like the raiser could be making a move on you and you have some fold equity if you push.

[GoldenIP]

I think this is a really interesting situation. Firstly, don't bother c/r if you're not willing to get it all in.

Secondly, and more importantly, I think this is one of those situations where you've got the be mindful of the fact that a) you've got a big hand but it could be massively counterfeited and b) is a villain getting away from anything worse than a set of 5s.

I remember reading a blog post from sbrugby and it definitely help me integrate a little more controlled caution into my game and I run at 53/40 HU so knowing when these situations arise is really helpful. I used a similar example in my own blog recently. Here's what I said and I think it applies perfectly to this situation:

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One of the biggest leaks I feel I've plugged in my PLO game, and a leak I feel a lot of people make is committing a lot of chips - with a very good hand like a set - when the hand is far from over. I've probably not given a good indication of what I mean. Here's a theoretical situation.

Imagine I've got TcTsAsJd and the flop comes Td4h6h. I've raised PF and the Villain has come along. There's $6 in the middle. He checks, I pot it and he insta-c/raises. Now, this has a tonne to do with the fact that this game is pot-limit. But I think it's a mistake to shove for pot. Yes, there's a very good chance you could have got lucky and found yourself up against lower set or 2pair but there's a good chance you're up against a big wrap of some sort like 5h7h2d8d. Firstly, having tried a combination of different wraps that would be comfortable calling a raise PF, and then c/r for pot on the flop, with TTAJ, you're rarely a favourite. This probably isn't immediately obvious during the game. But at best, TTAJ is probably a 42% dog. I see a lot of players push because they've got top set and sometimes it's wrong to do so.

The absolute best way to play top set when you can't find any other hand to put your villain on except a big wrap is to call the c/r and if a brick comes on the turn, now you can get it all in with confidence that in the long run, you'll win more than your villain. You've got to be prepared to lay down big hands in PLO and this is absolutely one of those occasions. It is definitely a leak to push that because, unlike NLHE, (a) there's even less chance of someone having a big wrap draw (b) at best it's usually an OESFD and vs top set, and that's a 40% dog and (c) in NLHE, there's a chance to push them off their draw by shoving your entire stack. In PLO, you're (a) restricted by the pot-limit (b) probably up against something that provides more outs than even an OESFD if they've got the flop wrapped and (c) it's really unlikely to get any opponent to fold with that kind of draw because you simply can't get enough chips in the pot.

So in future, just call the c/r and be absolutely ready to fold if a scare card hits and secondly, fire for full-pot if a brick falls (and there aren't many of those). There are times when you should not be afraid of beating your opp. into the pot with top set, and there are times when you should bide your time and act later. Believe it or not, sets can be over played even when a made hand isn't available. Hope this helps.

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the TL;DR is that there are occasions when even though it may seem you've got a hand locked or a big draw to it, sometimes it's best to take a prudent line, peel another card, and re-evualate on the turn. PLO has too many variables to try and confine it to the flop.

FWIW - being the PFR, I would definitely lead the flop with your draw.

[Elrazor]

i lead the flop here, and play it from there. needless to say if there is a higher flush out there and a set/2pair you are in terrible shape, and for this reason i would be willing to let the hand go.

[Vinetou]

Ty for responses so far. Some questions:

So I made a mistake by checkraising, because I commited myself to the pot by doing that, right? I guess my hand was just not so good to go for a checkraise (it is not normal play, but I explained my reason - it was wrong probably). If I bet, he has to put me on a hand, because I checked all those times to him, so he has to put me on a hand and he won't raise me without a hand, so if I get raised, do I fold now?

So it should go bet fold?

[alavet]

with given description ofvillian i like your game
he may bluff here, so we may easily take the pot right now and if we got reraised - bad, but we have outs to fight

after you got reraised there is now way to fold

[wazz]

I think this is a check-call.