Professional No-Limit Holdem SSNL Discussion

[relativity_x]

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Very clear, excellent book that made me a lot of money right away! Truly fantastic as I was impotent for seven years before reading the introduction! Well, my chips stacks were impotent; now they are huge!

Seriously, this book is the next greatest book on how to beat No-Limit Hold'em! Very concise and easy to read!

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Found that review on amazon. He's already killing poker after reading the book even though he's sucked for 7 years. LMAO.

[ryanj247]

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i donk have much experience live, i usually buy in for about as much as i have on me.


for shorstacking 20bbs (i.e. the minimum) is the nizzles. you should rathole before getting to 30bbs.

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the thing is, in this book, they actually go into some depth to explain logically the characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages of different stack sizes (they discuss it in terms of SPR, but it's the same concept). they make an argument that sounds pretty reasonable to me, which is that ideally we'd like to get all-in with pot-sized bets on the flop and turn. by doing so we a) protect our hand against draws on the turn with a big bet and b) eliminate the possibility of being bluffed off our hand on the river.

with 33BB, it's a perfect fit. we can raise to 3BB and get 1 caller, make top pair or better on the flop, make a 7.5BB PSB, then push for our remaining 22.5BB stack on the turn (into a 22.5BB pot). you can up the stack to 40BB or 50BB if your opponents will call 4-5BB+ preflop raises and/or if you're typically getting more than one caller.

i have only minimal experience playing shortstacked, but this approach seems like it would be more profitable than just pushing preflop or on the flop with 20BB, and it doesn't seem like it would be awkward at all.

[Capone]

im going to order me a copy today.

[tufat23]

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[ QUOTE ]
i donk have much experience live, i usually buy in for about as much as i have on me.


for shorstacking 20bbs (i.e. the minimum) is the nizzles. you should rathole before getting to 30bbs.

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing is, in this book, they actually go into some depth to explain logically the characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages of different stack sizes (they discuss it in terms of SPR, but it's the same concept). they make an argument that sounds pretty reasonable to me, which is that ideally we'd like to get all-in with pot-sized bets on the flop and turn. by doing so we a) protect our hand against draws on the turn with a big bet and b) eliminate the possibility of being bluffed off our hand on the river.

with 33BB, it's a perfect fit. we can raise to 3BB and get 1 caller, make top pair or better on the flop, make a 7.5BB PSB, then push for our remaining 22.5BB stack on the turn (into a 22.5BB pot). you can up the stack to 40BB or 50BB if your opponents will call 4-5BB+ preflop raises and/or if you're typically getting more than one caller.

i have only minimal experience playing shortstacked, but this approach seems like it would be more profitable than just pushing preflop or on the flop with 20BB, and it doesn't seem like it would be awkward at all.

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i see what ure saying, but i think ure suffereing from being scared to play poker. also, if shortstacking, u really shouldnt be making full PSB, thats rly bad.
i know im gonna come off as a douchebag, but theres a lot about this i dont want to post right now.

all i was gonna realyy say in this thread that 30-70bb stacks are crazy awkward

[relativity_x]

how much does the book go into playing 100+BB especially on turn/river?

I think most everyone can play fine preflop. I don't think we need to readjust preflop by playing shorter. I want to see more discussion on playing draws/strong hands for value on later streets with deepstacks.

Does this book deliver in that area? If so, can you give an example or two?

[ryanj247]

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how much does the book go into playing 100+BB especially on turn/river?

I think most everyone can play fine preflop. I don't think we need to readjust preflop by playing shorter. I want to see more discussion on playing draws/strong hands for value on later streets with deepstacks.

Does this book deliver in that area? If so, can you give an example or two?

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the book attempts to persuade us that we're actually making quite a few mistakes preflop. they argue that some hands in some circumstances would be easier to play postflop if we limped instead of raising. they argue that other hands/situations dictate a larger preflop raise. they make the point that we're playing some hands in situations that are favoring our opponents' likely holdings and our opponents' stack size and position, not our own, and that we should just fold in those spots. and they offer some ideas on how different actions preflop can make postflop play much easier to plan and execute with any size stack, including 100BB+.

[Matt Flynn]

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how much does the book go into playing 100+BB especially on turn/river?

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100bb+ a lot; turn/river not much. not enough room.


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I don't think we need to readjust preflop by playing shorter.

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no, it's just an option we had to acknowledge.

we also explain how it works better if everyone has deep stacks (by deep we mean 200+, but around 150bb it starts shifting towards being easier for top pair hands).


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I want to see more discussion on playing draws/strong hands for value on later streets with deepstacks.

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we talk a lot about how to set up draw hands, using fold equity, and when to semibluff, but we ran out of room before we could discuss postflop line comparisons with draws.

[Chaos_ult]

Can't believe my book isn't here yet [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I'm so impatient

[ryanj247]

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i see what ure saying, but i think ure suffereing from being scared to play poker. also, if shortstacking, u really shouldnt be making full PSB, thats rly bad.
i know im gonna come off as a douchebag, but theres a lot about this i dont want to post right now.

all i was gonna realyy say in this thread that 30-70bb stacks are crazy awkward

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the authors of this book have laid out their argument for why top pair & overpair type hands are easy to play when the pot is about 1/4 of the smallest stack on the flop. namely, they argue that this size allows us to get all-in with two pot-sized bets.

can you give us an example of a common situation that is awkward when the pot is 1/4 of the small stack on the flop, but straigtforward when the pot is more like 1/2 of the small stack on the flop?

also, why are pot-sized bets bad when shortstacked?

i'm not suggesting you have it wrong. i'm just saying that i've heard the in-depth reasoning from these authors, and i'd like to hear yours also.

[tufat23]

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can you give us an example of a common situation that is awkward when the pot is 1/4 of the small stack on the flop, but straigtforward when the pot is more like 1/2 of the small stack on the flop?


also, why are pot-sized bets bad when shortstacked?


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when u miss.

it just seems like this whole scenario is for people that dont know what to do unless they flop 2pair+.


fwiw i havent read the book, im just going on whatevers been posted here. i dont doubt there are interesting reasons to play 40/50bb stack or so, but this is starting to remind me of the sklansky thread where he overlimps 77 10-handed, flop s top set, and advocates c/c on 3 streets. im sure its good in some game theory nash equilibrium scenario, but its just lol in practice