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  #51  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:40 PM
John Kilduff John Kilduff is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Fair enough but what we're talking about are the millions of illegals (and their children) who are ALREADY here - not the new immigrants who might come. Blame Mexico if you like, but the fact is there are many illegal immigrants living and working in our cities and towns. Their kids go to school with our kids.

This is a practical issue. Rounding up all these millions of illegals and sending them back to wherever they came from would be inefficient, costly, and probably harmful to segments of our own economy. So a guy like McCain has the guts to try and find a workable compromise solution to this very complex problem - and everyone just yells "amnesty!" as if it's the most horrible thing they could imagine.

I don't think most democrats or republicans would object to better control of our borders. If only legal immigrants came to the US from now on, that would be fine with me. I am not a fan of illegal immigration. But it seems counterproductive (not to mention mean) to insist on rounding up and deporting millions of people who are already here because their own country was horrible, and we couldn't control our borders to stop them.

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Ok and I'm not opposed to lenience as a general principle in most kinds of enforcement (including lenience even in criminal matters unrelated to immigration).

I think a big part of the opposing argument, though, is not how bad a current amnesty would be, but what it would do for the future: it would send a clear signal that amnesty is what to expect and thereby encourage even more illegal immigration. I've read that's what the last actual amnesty did (under Clinton or was it Reagan? I forget).

I do think the USA has been getting more illegal immigrants than can effectively be assimilated for the given time span and I suspect that problem would become more exacerbated.

I don't think balkanization (non-assimilated pockets, cities or perhaps even later, regions) within a country is a good thing.

So that's what I see as the opposing argument. I don't think there are any clear or easily workable solutions on either side of this debate. Perhaps removing all welfare would greatly disincentivize most illegal immigration; I don't know, but that's the only relatively "easy" and likely fairly effective solution I can see at this point. I'm leery of a fence because I suspect it could be used in the future to keep people IN as well as OUT.
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  #52  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:44 PM
bkholdem bkholdem is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

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They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.

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What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc? And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?

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Out of the 100+ that I have met and know, I would say about 90% pay regular taxes just like the taxes that come out of citizens checks. Seriously. The odd one that cleans houses doesn't. And a few have a small portion of their total income in cash. But almost all are paid by payroll check with a SSN attached and federal, state, etc taken out.

I don't know how it is where they are all picking fruit, but in the cities, where there are stores and businesses, the immigrants working there are not paid cash...they all get checks and have all the same taxes taken out. The only difference is they don't file returns, so all of the one's who only have 1 job don't get the $700 tax return for being a working poor. The one's that have 2 crappy jobs and work 70 hours a week to put then in the next tax bracket don't file either, but they are not in an envious position either.
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  #53  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:48 PM
Thug Bubbles Thug Bubbles is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

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The guy was offered an out-of-sequence release by the North Vietnamese because his father was a relatively-famous commander in the Navy and he turned it down because he didn't think it was fair to get sent home before other less-well-connected POWs who had been imprisoned for longer were forced to stay; he was then mercilessly tortured because of the refusal to leave.

I suppose we can debate what it means to be a "hero" and the nobility of purpose of flying jets in Vietnam, but you jumping into the Grand Canyon != McCain being offered the chance to escape imprisonment and torture but refusing to do so because it violated a dearly held principle. Not that I would expect your typical ACist to actually understand any of this kind of nuance, or why someone would do something like experience terrible physical trauma because of fidelity to dearly held principles (I know, I know -- you and Nielsio and other ACtards have experienced the terrible pain and suffering that the jackbooted thuggery of state authority and their taxation, which has wrought terribly wretched and painful lives upon you, which can only be remedied by sacrificing enormous time and energy...by posting about it on an the intraweb and YouTube. That is umm, a little similar, but not exactly the same).

Anyway, I thought it important to point this out, just in case there were other people like gobbomom out there who thought you were funny but hadn't quite considered why your analogy was retarded.

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Hmm... jumping into the Grand Canyon = tremendously stupid decision

Willingly choosing to be stay imprisoned and be tortured = tremendously stupid decision

Seems like a good analogy to me!

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Is this a joke? Standing on principle with a consequence of personal harm is heroic by most standards, and in no way analogous to nonsensical self-mutilation.

Re-reading both posts, I'm going to just assume you are serious. So lets just go right to a pictogram.



GG, Dvault.
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  #54  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:03 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Hmm... jumping into the Grand Canyon = tremendously stupid decision

Willingly choosing to be stay imprisoned and be tortured = tremendously stupid decision

Seems like a good analogy to me!

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this may be the most unintentionally ironic post of all time
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  #55  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:10 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Willingly choosing to be stay imprisoned and be tortured = tremendously stupid decision


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The ability to do tremendously stupid things is, along with the ability to do tremendously intelligent things, the greatest of human traits.

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Value-less greatest or value-laden greatest?
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  #56  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:13 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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What percentage of this issue is just racism, do you think? (I heard the words "assimilate" and "be a part our culture" a lot from the candidates, which sounds a heck of a lot like code to me.)

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I think 90% of the issue is culture, not racism. Have you been to a fast food restaurant or retail store lately? No one working in those places speaks English anymore. As long as the majority of the workforce that people interact with on a daily basis have 0 language skills, people will be pissed of about illegal immigration, regardless of whether those people are illegal immigrants. That and its nice to be able to go to Home Depot without being swarmed by illegal immigrants asking you if you need help.

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In return, stuff is cheaper.

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Compared to less illegal immigration, a broken legal immigration system and a broken welfare system, yes.

Compared to less illegal immmigration, an effective legal immigration/guest worker program and a welfare system that puts people to work instead of feeding them life support, no.

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How is limiting immigration ever going to drive prices down? I mean, if you lump in "removing welfare" with your limiting of immigration I'm sure you are going to get a NET decrease in costs, but its in SPITE of your legal immigration system and not because of it.

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Its not in spite of nor because of, its a package of rational policies that would result in whatever the necessary levels of immigration/guest workers are and reduce welfare costs at the same time. the net result is the same or lower prices and lower taxes/smaller deficits

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Right but you are talking about an optimization considering BOTH variables, I'm talking about maximizing one of the variables. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion that, in todays America or the near future, your plan is the best way to reduce costs of goods. I'm just saying it isnt the best way, and by limiting immigration you ARE driving up prices. You are driving down costs for welfare, sure, but since I dont support welfare that isnt an argument that holds much water with me. If I put on my reality hat, I can understand that welfare isnt going anywhere soon though.
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  #57  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:24 PM
Moseley Moseley is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

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Yes they do. That is why they get false SS cards. So they can get jobs.

It has been all over the news about employers getting letters from the SSA every month advising them that the ss number they gave does not match the name of the person.

There are states that passed laws requiring employers to resolve the issue and the ALCU and AFL-CIO sued them.
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  #58  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:27 PM
Taso Taso is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

Okay, I didn't mean just income taxes.
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  #59  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:39 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Okay, I didn't mean just income taxes.

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Well they obviously pay sales tax. And if they rent or buy houses, they pay tax on that too.
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  #60  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:47 PM
Taso Taso is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

So what's everyone bitching about then? I always assumed illegals didn't pay taxes.
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