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  #81  
Old 11-13-2007, 08:29 PM
KRANTZ KRANTZ is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

[ QUOTE ]
Krantz: How often do you push turn here with ace high flush and how often do you push turn with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

depends on the opponent and how the match has been going. here i felt like patrick would think i look weaker in calling the turn rather than raising.

i like what irockhoes/isura had to say. i think i'm in agreement there.

waiting on a cpl more people to post before i give results
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  #82  
Old 11-13-2007, 11:17 PM
Terkman Terkman is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

obv it depends on how the match is running. But in this specific hand, do you raise ace high flush more often or less often than 8 high flush? If you have ace high flush there aren't that many really bad rivers but you are more likely to get action from a worse hand. If he has a worse flush i assume you get action on non club river anyway so I kind of like flatting turn with both assuming he bets river as often as it sounds like. Really curious about your thoughts about this though. Think you played this hand perfect btw. River is tough to answer and it really comes down to PAs bluffing frequency, which you know better than me.
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  #83  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:47 AM
Isura Isura is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

I think the crux of the hand is that PA is going to underestimate how often we have a flush, and that is going to throw off his bluffing frequencies to our benefit. Requin is spot on about us having the flush blockers. And also he can have the Ac which is a good blocker against us having a flush or AA. If I had to guess he had AcT or KcJ.
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  #84  
Old 11-14-2007, 11:55 AM
AcidKnight AcidKnight is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

If he has some kind of weird strength made hand, like AcTx or something of a similar relative strength, how is he gonna play the river with that hand? I guess what I'm saying is, how often is he gonna realize that AcTx is not the best hand after your turn call and turn the hand into a bluff on the river here?

It feels like the parts of his range that would have some showdown value here would be more apt to check the river and fold or CRAI depending on your action, than they would to pot the river into you.
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  #85  
Old 11-14-2007, 07:32 PM
SILLYGOOSER SILLYGOOSER is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

[ QUOTE ]
I think the crux of the hand is that PA is going to underestimate how often we have a flush, and that is going to throw off his bluffing frequencies to our benefit. Requin is spot on about us having the flush blockers. And also he can have the Ac which is a good blocker against us having a flush or AA. If I had to guess he had AcT or KcJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he understimate how often we have a flush? Are you saying KRANTZ rarely plays a flush this way? Because he just did. I think FindaGrind could catch onto that pretty quickly.

Also who cares if he underestimates how often we have da flush? Betting on the river you think he's prayin to the Lord that we have an overpair? If so why not make the argument for calling with an overpair? Seems like a low flush and an overpair would be the same.
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  #86  
Old 11-15-2007, 12:21 AM
btmagnetw btmagnetw is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in what instances has PA checked the turn after a c/r? very rarely?

[/ QUOTE ]

not very often at all, and he checkraises a lot. fun, right? i changed up my c-betting frequency after awhile, though, but this hand occurred before i started getting tricky like that.

[/ QUOTE ]ugh in that case, i feel like you have to call.

if PA nearly always follows through on the turn after a flop c/r, then we can disregard the strength of the turn bet. furthermore, if he was bluffing and decided to give up on the turn after the strength you showed, he would certainly decide that the 4 was a perfect card to continue his bluff. thus, we can disregard the strength of his river bet.

so this hinges on his range to c/r the flop, which i must assume, is huge. call, but not happy about it.
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  #87  
Old 11-15-2007, 11:25 AM
hoyasaxa hoyasaxa is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

bump for results
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  #88  
Old 11-15-2007, 11:30 AM
PBFan PBFan is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

[ QUOTE ]
can't he be putting us on stuff like JJ/TT and just be looking to get a fold? its gross but i think calling is reasonable since hes so damn aggressive.

tbh, the read you posted points sooooooo much in favor of a call that i think maybe you called and lost, and are doubting yourself. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #89  
Old 11-15-2007, 11:33 AM
phatlat phatlat is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

I think that, while that river likely spells trouble, this is a call.

Also, why not jam 4th?
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  #90  
Old 11-15-2007, 11:56 AM
Oki-Oki Oki-Oki is offline
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Default Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU

[ QUOTE ]
I think that, while that river likely spells trouble, this is a call.

Also, why not jam 4th?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it looks so strong and we are 200bb deep, if we jam some worse hands call but overall its not a great result. If we smooth call he may continue bluffing (if thats what he was up too) and value bet worse.

Basically shoving the turn is bad because this is not 2/4.

Imo if I can have one, calling seems kinda bad just because if hes value betting most of his range beats us. But also if we fold here what are we calling with? Just seem like we are at PA's mercy on the river. At least this what it feels like to me.

Tbh I really like Isura's thoughts and lean towards a call. But I have flip flopped a couple of times in regards to my action.

Also do people think that PA would bet the river as a bluff (if he is bluffing) if he could see our hand but we didnt know that he could see it. (If he knows our hand exactly but knows we dont know he can see it, kinda like absolute.) If the answer is yes, that he would think we could be folded then I like a call even more.
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