Top two on a scary board vs Zeejustin in Caesar's 10k

[adanthar]

In any cash forum, everyone would be screaming to get it in. Except this isn't cash and if you get it in vs. ZJ, you have 4 outs, so...hmm. obviously a turn c/r is bad. a check/call is good if he's going to bet, but how often will he bet a naked 8, a king or a bunch of other stuff on this board?

so I like leading the turn. but since we checked and will presumably call, what's the river?

[ImNotSoGood]

I am soooooo confused right now.

Are we playing in an MTT where you cannot lead the turn?

Seriously, this seems like by far the best option. Check-raising seems bad, check-calling seems better but not the best option IMO.

I like betting the turn and river, and folding to raises on both streets. Checking the turn let's him play for pot control with a ton of his hands that have value, when he would be calling a turn bet(and a river bet) with a decent part of his range that we have beat. If he is has a hand that beats us, he is raising very often here. We are also giving him free cards w/ draws on the turn if we check. We can also mix in a river check/call on river sometimes.

[curtains]

I would fold preflop. The leverage that the player in position can use in a spot like this is so great IMO. I mean we flop top two pair, and all he has done is simply bet twice as the pre flop aggressor, and we are completely tortured with how to play the hand. If I did play the hand I'd prefer to reraise. I wouldn't mind calling with pairs and etc.

I have huge phobias about playing any deep stacked hands out of position though, because I suck at it, so I try to find any reasonable excuse to avoid doing so. It's just so hard to win a big pot, and control the pot size if our hand is good but vulnerable, and you know that your opponent isn't always going to make life easy for you.


FWIW I would call the turn also. Btw for just a general theory question, why are people always so ready to play such hands out of position? The disadvantage seems huge to going first, and it seems worth well more than the money we put in preflop in these spots. I know that this is beginner's question 101, but I always have trouble justifying having to go first for the whole hand against a good player. The difference being acting first and last seems so monumental to me, especially in a psychologically charged spot like this where we are both giant stacks on a bubble.

[getballed]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold preflop. The leverage that the player in position can use in a spot like this is so great IMO. I mean we flop top two pair, and all he has done is simply bet twice as the pre flop aggressor, and we are completely tortured with how to play the hand. If I did play the hand I'd prefer to reraise. I wouldn't mind calling with pairs and etc.

I have huge phobias about playing any deep stacked hands out of position though, because I suck at it, so I try to find any reasonable excuse to avoid doing so. It's just so hard to win a big pot, and control the pot size if our hand is good but vulnerable, and you know that your opponent isn't always going to make life easy for you.


FWIW I would call the turn also. Btw for just a general theory question, why are people always so ready to play such hands out of position? The disadvantage seems huge to going first, and it seems worth well more than the money we put in preflop in these spots. I know that this is beginner's question 101, but I always have trouble justifying having to go first for the whole hand against a good player. The difference being acting first and last seems so monumental to me, especially in a psychologically charged spot like this where we are both giant stacks on a bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

They belive they are good enough to play profitably post-flop OOP

[zizazziza]

let me go through and answer some questions (obviously w/o knowing who is @ the table)
1) final table may be excellent, but we are still @ 30 ppl so I can guarantee there are worse players at the table
2) Yes we "could" bet the turn, but we are talking about IF we checked the turn and thats the question

[betgo]

You are getting better than 3-1 pot odds preflop against a CO raise from a big stack on the bubble. I think folding preflop is pretty bad.

You can't let CO and button steal from you every hand because you are OOP. There are also ways to play OOP, and I am not sure it is that huge a disadvantage.

[mastr]

on the side note betgo, fischman is awful, singer is pretty damn good but does some REALLY damn goofy stuff, ZJ and Vivek were almost vertainly top 2 players at that table

[Todd Terry]

It's tough for me, and I'm sure everyone else, to give objective advice in this hand because we all know the results. Pre, I would never fold, and 3betting light OOP this deep, especially against a good player, is a huge mistake IMO, so I'd definitely call.

On the flop, I would either c/c or c/r, I do a lot of both in this spot. No one else on this forum would even think about c/r'ing, but your hand is probably good but isn't going to win a showdown at the river UI, you're OOP against a good player, so taking it down now (and getting rid of it if you get resistance) might be the best play. It's certainly the least risky. There are also metagame reasons to c/r here, if you get seen c/r'ing without a monster hand here, you're a lot more likely to get action when you c/r top set or a monster draw.

I would never c/c the turn, the board is way too dangerous and 1/3 of the deck is going to make you puke on the river. The only difference between c/r'ing the turn and c/c'ing the turn and then betting the river is that the latter gives Justin another card, so I think the former has to be a better strategy. I'd make it like 100 or 105K.

I don't know what to do on the river if he calls the turn c/r, but I don't think he can possibly call here. He's shoving or folding. I think I'd probably shove any river if he calls the c/r, because there's no way he's calling with a draw here.

If he shoves over the turn C/R, you're definitely deep enough to get away from the hand. Post this hand 6 months from now under an alias to get people's real responses to this situation, but I think it's a fold. Your hand looks very strong, I just can't see him doing this with an overpair.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting better than 3-1 pot odds preflop against a CO raise from a big stack on the bubble. I think folding preflop is pretty bad.

You can't let CO and button steal from you every hand because you are OOP. There are also ways to play OOP, and I am not sure it is that huge a disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok ok I admit that I wouldn't fold there in like a million years, but sometimes I wonder if more people should fold oop (myself included). Also being OOP is a HUGE disadvantage in my opinion. The antes are just too big though.

btw I really would never never PF, I just felt like getting philisophical. I do put a ton of value on position, probably more than most, but the immediate pot odds are just way too big to really consider folding IMO. We can just play some kind of completely boring postflop style this hand and it should be correct to call.

Also I'd call before reraising PF [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Basically ignore my entire first post.

[Jazzy3113]

some people dont know what happened and would love to hear what happened on the hand