Rivercall with weak hand. Correct or incorrect?

Lufcmot · #1 05-26-2007, 11:40 AM

I think I remember that Ed Miller saying in his book and in some posts here that players fold too much in big pots. In this hand I was farely sure that I was beat, but remembered what he said. So I called. Is this the correct line or should I have folded?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Js Qc (one pair, jacks).
MP2 has Ts Kd (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 13.25 BB.

Ampelmann · #2 05-26-2007, 11:43 AM

I fold this. He has a K like 99% of the time.

Edit: And never post results, not even in white. They don't matter and might bias the answers.

Bona · #3 05-26-2007, 11:50 AM

I fold this preflop.
As played I Fold the river.

kerowo · #4 05-26-2007, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this preflop.
As played I Fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, the open limp is bad, the river call is bad, the turn call is probably bad.

Xhad · #5 05-26-2007, 12:01 PM

Even if hero wins 1/2 the pot on average when he hits his straight and he has no other outs, the turn call is ok. But yeah don't open-limp into a CO poster.

Lufcmot · #6 05-26-2007, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold this preflop.
As played I Fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, the open limp is bad, the river call is bad, the turn call is probably bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that this hand wasn't played well by me but, would it have been better if I raised pf?

After a little bit more studying of the hand I'd say that the most likely result if I hit is a split.

What I really was after was an judgement of the rivercall. Which hand is "correct" to call with? Tptk? twop? a set?

elindauer · #7 05-26-2007, 02:28 PM

First, odd decision preflop. You may want to revisit your starting requirements.

On to your question... getting 12:1 you need to be fairly convinced that your opponent has a better hand to fold. That said, your opponent has made three different bets where there appeared to be very little hope that he would win the pot. Unless your opponent is a total idiot maniac, you are beaten too often to call. Probably if your opponent was the type of player you should call, you would know it by now. Fold.

good luck.
eric

kerowo · #8 05-26-2007, 02:34 PM

Early position with an easily dominated hand that wants lot of people in why are you limping when you don't know how many people are going to be in? If you had reads that this was a super tight table or something you might be able to raise this pre-flop, but really, just fold pf. The biggest mistake with this hand was being in it in the first place.

nerdking · #9 05-26-2007, 02:35 PM

I'll raise QJ from early position basically never. I also won't limp QJos from EP as it keeps me from getting into situations like this.

Being that MP just sat down at the table, you probably don't have any reads on him, so calling down a preflop raiser after he has bet every street is not that good of an idea.

Regarding your Ed Miller lesson, our own MrWookie has reminded us that we need to pay attention to HOW that pot got that big to begin with when we are tasked with calling 1 bet into a 10+BB pot.

NIX · #10 05-26-2007, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What I really was after was an judgement of the rivercall. Which hand is "correct" to call
with? Tptk? twop? a set?

[/ QUOTE ]
This really isn't a fair question. Reason being is that you don't take the line you took with TPTK (AK is a preflop raise), two pair (hands that make two pair with the 8 or 6 aren't played preflop, KJ/JT should've raised the flop), or a set (88/66 don't see the turn, KK/JJ/TT raise preflop). If you did play any of those hands that what in this pot, I'd say they're worth a call.

Aside from that, it depends on your hand, the board, and [ QUOTE ]
Regarding your Ed Miller lesson, our own MrWookie has reminded us that we need to pay attention to HOW that pot got that big to begin with when we are tasked with calling 1 bet into a 10+BB pot.

[/ QUOTE ] is pretty good advice.