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  #861  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:39 PM
Josem Josem is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 4,780
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
I know I posted this before, but now with this update from Mike Haven,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is such incredibly bad thinking, and why Mike Haven shouldn't let his good name be used by FTP.

Mike Haven was just copying and pasting what the FTP consultant said to him.


If FTP wants to have a representative on these forums, they should employ one - and not sully Mike Haven's good name with their poor, poor, behaviour.

[ QUOTE ]
And now I read Mike haven's post. All I can say is "wow". From now on, I will wait until all the evidence is laid before Mike Haven or the 2+2 community. I have lost faith in the human race, but I will say good job FTP for your investigation. Take care.

[/ QUOTE ]
But NO EVIDENCE has been laid before the 2+2 community!
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  #862  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:44 PM
londomollari londomollari is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 419
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Are they going to redistribute the winnings Antonius has made using different usernames as well?
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  #863  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:51 PM
_dave_ _dave_ is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,628
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]

They took her money for "botting", couldn't prove it, found out she had multiple accounts, figured that would do, and used it as grounds to keep the money.


[/ QUOTE ]

From the limited info we have seen (ty ty Mike) - this is what it looks like to me too [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

It seems anyone who has used the family member / new account trick to illegally get FTP rakeback should now seriously fear any investigation [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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  #864  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:07 PM
StellarWind StellarWind is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,569
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
But NO EVIDENCE has been laid before the 2+2 community!

[/ QUOTE ]
This is false. The stats post showing three nearly identical players was certainly evidence.

It seems reasonably clear that the same person or bot was playing on several accounts. If this was a bot then she's 100% guilty: close all the accounts, keep the money, and blacklist the owners.

Let's assume that all she did is use three accounts during the same time period (but not at the same table). Some have compared this with the socially accepted but rule-breaking action of creating a different account for rakeback. Sorry, I don't see it that way. A HU player sitting at tables under three different names is taking gross advantage of the other players. It isn't a fair fight the second time we play. She has a whole session of experience with me and I have no idea we even played before. For those of you who don't play HU, let me emphasize this is a huge advantage.

I understand that some networks do permit multiple accounts or screenname changes, but FTP isn't one of them. Someone who breaks the rules and gains a major advantage over other players is a cheater.

The way I see it, the *best* case for SillySal at this point is:

1. She's not a botter, she's merely a rule-breaker and high-stakes cheat who victimized other players out of a lot of money.

2. She's a liar who took advantage of the Zoo. She always had a very good idea why FTP might be investigating her. Probably all of here accounts were frozen at once. Certainly she wasn't an innocent victim.

3. She's a libeler who has smeared the reputation of FTP and online poker in general. FTP may have been insensitive and bungling but she is a malicious wrongdoer who created the whole situation in the first place.

If she had been upfront when the investigation started I would have supported mercy. But she lied, stonewalled them, and dragged their name through the mud. If FTP mistakenly concluded she's a botter instead of a multiaccounter then whose fault is that? She's the one who concealed the truth.

Cheater, liar, libeler, rule-breaker. Confiscation of funds is completely appropriate even if she isn't a bot. The rules say they can do it and the punishment fits the crime.

I'll save my tears for when a truly innocent person comes here and no one believes a word they say. That person will be another victim of SillySal.

PS: Don't misunderstand this post. I still think she's probably a botter. Alternative explanations are far-fetched.
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  #865  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:26 PM
_dave_ _dave_ is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,628
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

StellarWind,
[ QUOTE ]

Let's assume that all she did is use three accounts during the same time period (but not at the same table). Some have compared this with the socially accepted but rule-breaking action of creating a different account for rakeback. Sorry, I don't see it that way. A HU player sitting at tables under three different names is taking gross advantage of the other players. It isn't a fair fight the second time we play. She has a whole session of experience with me and I have no idea we even played before. For those of you who don't play HU, let me emphasize this is a huge advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with most of your points, however it is well documented that certain "high profile" players (Antonious, Bennymine?, certainly others) FTP is A-OK with having numerous accounts.

Certainly plenty of 2p2 have more than one FTP account, although this presumably without FTP's blessing.

Botting or not - if the final justification was "well, we can't prove any other offence - but you had multiple accounts so ty4themonies, bye." - then a good few 2p2ers should be very concerned.

And very annoyed at the hypocrisy of certain "blessed" accounts being allowed multiple usernames.

dave.
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  #866  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:27 PM
jbrennen jbrennen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 148
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds kinda like nabbing Al Capone for tax evasion. They took her money for "botting", couldn't prove it, found out she had multiple accounts, figured that would do, and used it as grounds to keep the money.

Meh, I think everyone looks pretty bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1

FTP comes off as, "Something's rotten here, we're not sure what, and we can't prove much of anything. The accused is evasive and inconsistent, a sure sign of guilt. She's used multiple accounts in the past, so if we simply revoke her playing privileges and release her funds, there's a good chance she'll be back under a different screen name and we'll be none the wiser. So since we don't want her playing her, and because it's really tough for us to stop her (history of multiple accounts), we can just leave such a bad taste in her mouth about playing here (by confiscating the funds) that she won't want to come back. Oh, and we'll say that we're giving the money back to the 'victims' to help us look good, even though we're not really sure what crime was committed other than multi-accounting, and even though funds confiscation is not part of our policy for dealing with multi-accounting."

Just my humble opinion... And I'm really not much of a cynic in general, but this whole thing stinks to me.
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  #867  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:40 PM
GeniusToad GeniusToad is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 1,500
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
StellarWind,
[ QUOTE ]

Let's assume that all she did is use three accounts during the same time period (but not at the same table). Some have compared this with the socially accepted but rule-breaking action of creating a different account for rakeback. Sorry, I don't see it that way. A HU player sitting at tables under three different names is taking gross advantage of the other players. It isn't a fair fight the second time we play. She has a whole session of experience with me and I have no idea we even played before. For those of you who don't play HU, let me emphasize this is a huge advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with most of your points, however it is well documented that certain "high profile" players (Antonious, Bennymine?, certainly others) FTP is A-OK with having numerous accounts.

Certainly plenty of 2p2 have more than one FTP account, although this presumably without FTP's blessing.

Botting or not - if the final justification was "well, we can't prove any other offence - but you had multiple accounts so ty4themonies, bye." - then a good few 2p2ers should be very concerned.

And very annoyed at the hypocrisy of certain "blessed" accounts being allowed multiple usernames.

dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

have players such as antonius been allowed to have multiple accounts at the same time or has FTP allowed them to delete an old account to start up a new one? i'm aware of the latter happening but not necessarily the former. clearly there should be a distinction though.
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  #868  
Old 11-28-2007, 10:32 PM
Crane Crane is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 139
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Full Tilt Poker are nothing but a pack of hypocrites. Mike Matusow can use every profanity known to man, and it's fine. High rollers can have multiple accounts and it's fine. Full Tilt can confiscate funds with no redress and it's fine.

It's not fine. It's total BS. I don't care if she's guilty or not. Is the punishment total confiscation of funds for something that others have done? Don't think so.

That's what happens when you deal with offshore illegal sites. They don't have to follow any laws, there are no governing agencies, and they can take your money and tell you tough luck, which has happened to two friends of mine who play the horses on offshore accounts.

I wouldn't ever put a nickel into Full Tilt Poker.
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  #869  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:09 AM
LateNiteRush LateNiteRush is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 117
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know I posted this before, but now with this update from Mike Haven,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is such incredibly bad thinking, and why Mike Haven shouldn't let his good name be used by FTP.

Mike Haven was just copying and pasting what the FTP consultant said to him.


If FTP wants to have a representative on these forums, they should employ one - and not sully Mike Haven's good name with their poor, poor, behaviour.

[ QUOTE ]
And now I read Mike haven's post. All I can say is "wow". From now on, I will wait until all the evidence is laid before Mike Haven or the 2+2 community. I have lost faith in the human race, but I will say good job FTP for your investigation. Take care.

[/ QUOTE ]
But NO EVIDENCE has been laid before the 2+2 community!

[/ QUOTE ]
I think Mike Haven is the best mod on all of the 2+2 forums, so this is not ruining his name for me. I was just posting how I feel. Have a good evening...
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  #870  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:33 AM
apefish apefish is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: To the pain
Posts: 4,673
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

This is another good example of why Stellar Wind is consistently one of the best posters on this site.
Even if you want to take issue with any particular point it's such a well thought out well written post.
I'm not going to bother wondering any more whether sal was botting or simply engaged in clear bad behavior of another sort at Full Tilt.
Either when combined with a misuse of the valuable forum we call the zoo is enough for me to stop caring.
That doesn't clear Full Tilt of what I believe are real and ongoing communication problems between them and their customers.
This thread focalized the debate on that issue, and I think we need to go forward with our thoughts on that while leaving sal and her case behind.

imo.

fwiw.


edited to add: I wasn't a regular in the zoo until some relatively short while ago, but holy hell Mike Haven is da man.
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