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  #381  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:31 AM
Josem Josem is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 4,780
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

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We'll need to see the e-mail from Sal first.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12787453
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  #382  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:32 AM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The cat is back by popular demand.
Posts: 29,344
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

"Perhaps the aggrieved party and FTP could agree upon an trusted third party, and split the costs of reviewing the evidence and issuing a report, while being sworn to secrecy?"



Meh.
It's a nice thought of course that if you are wrongly accused/convicted you should have some recourse.
but if she's done nothing wrong she shouldn't have to pay a dime if FT suddenly decides to take her money.

However, this really isn't unlike a wrongfully accused murderer of having to pay a ton to some lawyer to prove his innocence. So I guess the idea has merit.
Just feels really icky to me that she should actually have to pay just to get her money back if she indeed is innocent.
But I'm sure she would like SOME of that money back better than none right about now.
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  #383  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:34 AM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

aarrrgh.
can't believe I didn't see that. She posted right before me I think and even though I was scrolling up to check I somehow missed that one.

Thanks josem.
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  #384  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:36 AM
Josem Josem is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 4,780
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
...but if she's done nothing wrong she shouldn't have to pay a dime if FT suddenly decides to take her money.

However, this really isn't unlike a wrongfully accused murderer of having to pay a ton to some lawyer to prove his innocence. So I guess the idea has merit.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a sense, the murderer already funds the arbitration through the tax system.

Since there's no taxes in this system, there's probably an opportunity for a site (in a free market world) to charge an extra 0.01% rake (or whatever) to cover the costs of funding such an exercise.

[ QUOTE ]
Just feels really icky to me that she should actually have to pay just to get her money back if she indeed is innocent..l

[/ QUOTE ]
In Australia, it is common (most obviously in civil disputes) to have a losing appellant in the court system to pay the costs of the other party - in some cases for the hearing to be held waiting for a deposit or some other mechanism.
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  #385  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:37 AM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Posts: 29,344
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A conclusion to this case has been reached and the player has been informed of our decision. While we can't share the details of the investigation with the community in general, we would be willing to share some findings with Mike Haven or some other respected mod.

Sean

[/ QUOTE ]

My post now changes from FTP froze my money to FTP STOLE my money.

I have been falsely accused, convicted and prosecuted without seeing a speck of evidence. FTP's decision is complete and final.

Please moderators, if you have any sense of fairness and a desire to be true to your community you need to contact me.

I have written each of you a letter and I hope to hear from you soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a reason you opted not to simply ctrl-c, ctrl-v, post? It takes less than two seconds.

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The fact that SillySal has not cut and pasted the email that she recieved from Full Tilt (which would have taken all of five seconds) does not speak well for her case, especially considering the fact that I pm'd her and suggested she do it (a pm which she ignored despite the fact that I got a read receipt). If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that FT called her out on whatever it was that she was doing in their email to her, and thats why she doesn't want to post it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee jamn220, sorry I didn't reply in your time frame. Needless to say this has taken a bit of my concentration and numerous phone calls to Attorneys I know and others who may be able to help me in getting my money back. Please forgive me for the time lapse.

After an extensive investigation into the activity on your account, we
have determined that you are using automated artificial intelligence
software to gain an advantage over other players.

This is a direct violation of clause #9 in our site terms at:
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/site-terms

Please note that the length of the investigation was due to the numerous
characteristics that need to be assessed when making this type of
determination.

As previously mentioned, in order to protect the integrity of this
investigation and those in the future, we will not be releasing the
evidence in this case. We can tell you that during the course of the
investigation we reviewed and assessed detailed hand histories and
playing patterns to come to our final decision.

Your Full Tilt Poker account will remain permanently closed and the
remaining funds will be used to reimburse the victims of your use of
automated artificial intelligence software.

You are no longer welcome to play at Full Tilt Poker.

Regards,

Jeremy E
Security and Fraud
Full Tilt Poker

[/ QUOTE ]


Yowza.
GL Sillysal.
If you indeed are innocent I hope you are somehow able to prove it.

go back and read the situation that nlnut was in a few months ago.
Everyone here was convinced they were all bots but I believe he eventually got all his money back.
I'm not sure they officially had convicted him of botting though.

As I recall, I thought he actually did get to talk to them on the phone.
For this much money I think they owe you such a courtesy over the phone even if you did do what they you accuse you of.
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  #386  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:41 AM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was being sarcastic that you guys thought that because sillysal didn't reply "fast enough" that she was more likely to be guilty.

Obviously, it is self-evident that the 3 hour delay isn't a bad reflection on FTP; Similarly, it is self-evident that the 1 (2?) hour delay by Sillysal is not a bad reflection on Sillysal.

While the IG forum is serious business, there are other things in the world that can hold someone's attention.

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While she has now posted it, my main concern was that she continued posting several times all of which were well after several people posted (and I pm'd her) asking her to post the damned email, and 3 hours later, no email, but several more posts proclaiming her innocence. In any event, she has now posted the email and this is a moot point. This was not handled well by Full Tilt Poker regardless of whether or not she is guilty because there is no way that she is 100 percent definitely guilty, no matter how much evidence FTP has, unless they've managed to get a video camera of a robot sitting at her computer.

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What gets me is that they wouldn't even want to talk to her on the phone.
If they think she might be botting or using some kind of software why wouldn't SOME part of their investigation include calling her and asking her what programs she uses when she plays and then FT can see if they can create a false-positive by implementing those very same programs.

IIRC, that exact situation happened with a WPEX player. They closed his account and just KNEW that he was using illegal programs. He gave them whatever he was using...like some AHK bet-pot script or something maybe...and WPEX admitted to being able to re-create the false-positive and so re-opened his account.

Something like that anyway. That WPEX situation happened several months ago and my memory is pretty fuzzy.
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  #387  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:42 AM
_dave_ _dave_ is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,628
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]

go back and read the situation that nlnut was in a few months ago.
Everyone here was convinced they were all bots but I believe he eventually got all his money back.
I'm not sure they officially had convicted him of botting though.


[/ QUOTE ]

FTP officially decided nlnut, drunkenboxer0 et al. were not bots - they did not have to defend themselves to FTP, other than faxing of ID etc.
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  #388  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:44 AM
alphamale1 alphamale1 is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 117
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Guess all fulltilt players should cash out after every session.
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  #389  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:45 AM
R*R R*R is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Higher Ground
Posts: 670
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
We can tell you that during the course of the investigation we reviewed and assessed detailed hand histories and
playing patterns to come to our final decision.



[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I am wrong but I cannot imagine they could base their decision on this alone. Do they have further evidence such as being able to detect a certain program being used. Is there the technology to detect this(and if so what took so long to catch it?) as patterns are not enough to conclude botting. What if the players is amazingly disciplined and plays the same way in all circimstances(like a bot would). I would think there are players around who play like bots. HH's and patterns certainly can't be enough. If so, all pokers savants beware.
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  #390  
Old 11-03-2007, 12:47 AM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The cat is back by popular demand.
Posts: 29,344
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

right. I'm remembering more now.
FT didn't think they were bots and everyone on 2+2 was freaking out at FT and saying, "How can you think that? Just look at their stats."


Anyway, I guess nevermind on using that example as a precedent. I do hope that FT is willing to be open-minded about some sort of appeals process or at least considers participating in ANY kind of a dialogue with sillysal so she has a chance to learn what the hell they think she did and she can defend herself and explain what programs she might think it was that triggered it or something.

Of course this all could have and should have been done at the very beginning...probably even before they froze her funds and took the investigation that direction. But better late than never on admitting that talking to the customer could be helpful for both parties.

It's never 100% certain. And there's always a chance they are wrong. So I think they owe it to the customer to actually listen to whatever explanation she may have to offer.
Unfortunately, she is going to have a tough time offering one if they continue to not tell her a damn thing. She only just now found out that the freeze was related to botting.
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