Calling with middle pair

nancyloum1 · #1 09-09-2007, 10:10 PM

This obviously worked out for me, but I couldn't tell if calling on the flop was stupid. I find myself calling with middle pair on the flop a lot when it's cheap, then folding when the turn doesn't improve my hand. Not sure how to determine when I am just throwing my money away.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 (t2910)
MP1 (t3165)
Hero (t2735)
MP3 (t3185)
CO (t2465)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1260)
BB (t4410)
UTG (t1635)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t50, 2 folds, Hero calls t50, MP3 calls t50, 1 fold, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets t150, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls t150, MP3 calls t150, Button folds.

Turn: (t750) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200, MP3 calls t200.

River: (t1350) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets t400, Hero raises to t900, MP3 calls t900, SB calls t460 (All-In).

Final Pot: t4010

Kimbell175113 · #2 09-09-2007, 11:13 PM

In this particular hand, I'd rather raise than call on the flop. You don't have a ton of outs if you're beat, you do have a ton of overcards to worry about, and you might get MP3 to fold A5 or something.

But fold on the flop is good, too.

earck · #3 09-09-2007, 11:19 PM

Fold preflop

Kimbell175113 · #4 09-09-2007, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah.

nancyloum1 · #5 09-10-2007, 12:00 AM

Yeah, I usually fold preflop on a hand like this, I was just mixing it up. But it did bring up the larger question -- when you do hit your middle pair in these situations, do you recommend the raise to rid yourself of top pair bad kickers?

earck · #6 09-10-2007, 12:15 AM

I just really don't like the hand in general, I fold preflop and if I somehow misclick and play the hand i easily fold the flop, there are so many other situations where you can get your money in, there are so many ways to be beat here and not a lot where you are ahead, even if you are you have no real idea what to do. It's best to just avoid these situations altogether.

BrandiFan · #7 09-10-2007, 02:12 AM

I don't mind the call pre. But, you just need to realize that you're not playing it to make 1 pair...

erc007 · #8 09-10-2007, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This obviously worked out for me, but I couldn't tell if calling on the flop was stupid. I find myself calling with middle pair on the flop a lot when it's cheap, then folding when the turn doesn't improve my hand. Not sure how to determine when I am just throwing my money away.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 (t2910)
MP1 (t3165)
Hero (t2735)
MP3 (t3185)
CO (t2465)
Button (t1080)
SB (t1260)
BB (t4410)
UTG (t1635)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t50, 2 folds, Hero calls t50, MP3 calls t50, 1 fold, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets t150, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls t150, MP3 calls t150, Button folds.

Turn: (t750) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200, MP3 calls t200.

River: (t1350) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets t400, Hero raises to t900, MP3 calls t900, SB calls t460 (All-In).

Final Pot: t4010

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer your question in general terms is impossible b/c every situation is different. That said you should know that the odds of you winning a pot at showdown (against only 1 bettor, when u hold 2nd pair on the flop are about 4 to 1 against TP and 7 to 3 against 2ndPair/better kicker.) With no draws and 5 outs to trips/2-pair, your odds to improve on the turn are 8 to 1 against. So it's pretty clear that calling the flop-folding the turn unimproved with 2nd pair is not a good habit to get into. Of course if your hand has draws, odds change accordingly.

On this flop, if SB is any good at all, this is an instafold. U have 2nd pair, weak kicker/BDFD and two players still behind you. Leading into 5 players is strong, even on a board like this. After the flop, u were getting the right odds to call, although u still might have to worry about the 2 behind u, b/c slowplaying 22/99 would have been fine on this flop. On river it's pretty obv that SB had a FD too, coupled with the fact that we didn't need any implied odds on the river/MP3 is still behind, i'm not sure if a raise is EV+ here either?