A4s BDFD

Harv72b · #1 12-01-2007, 05:11 AM

There are a few things you need to take into account, in addition to the pot odds being laid out to you & the strength of your draws. First of all, there's no guaranteeing that you'll win anything at all if you runner runner your way to a winning flush--in a 7-way pot, five players checked to a moderately aggressive guy in late position, who then bet & was flat called in four (so far) places. It's more likely than normal that the turn will get checked through (especially if it's a card which really helps you, like the 3 or 5 of spades or an ace), and when that happens then it becomes less likely that you'll win big if you do end up with the best hand. And even if you do improve on the turn and CO bets again, there's no guarantee that anyone else will call that bet.

So, basically, your implied odds suck, but your reverse implied odds also suck because the pot size means you'll often be forced to check/call to showdown if you turn your ace. With the size of the pot, this is at best a breakeven situation equity-wise, which means that peeling will only add variance to your game without affecting your longterm win rate either way. Or in short, just fold & wait for the next hand.

maverickai · #2 12-01-2007, 05:55 AM

At such stakes, you don't necessarily have to push such a thin edge (Or maybe there's not much edge here?). You might end up spewing... my experience with 0.02/0.04 is that I have learnt to identify spots which the pot is not too big, and I have a very weak draw or made hand that is totally not worth to pursue. It used to be a huge leak when I try to chase in similar situations like your post. Now I'm saving a lot of BBs for later rounds to charge my opponents.

favreftw · #3 12-01-2007, 12:59 PM

v easy fold

Smurph64 · #4 12-01-2007, 01:54 PM

A4s is looking for wheels, nut flush and two pair holdings in a large multiway pot.

Your Ace is a bad draw actually since it costs a lot of money when you hit and are outkicked and pays little when no one has an ace.

Two backdoor draws and an out for the Ace. I feel comfortable folding.

KitCloudkicker · #5 12-01-2007, 01:58 PM

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Your Ace is a bad draw actually since it costs a lot of money when you hit and are outkicked and pays little when no one has an ace.

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actually i think you make most of your money from hands like A4s when you flop TP and no one has you outkicked. you dont collect river bets but you collect lots of bets along the way when everyone misses.

Smurph64 · #6 12-01-2007, 02:29 PM

That's fine if you don't have to pay to play the draw but this flop was bet.

Guys lose more than they win here by hoping for the ace more often than not.

HermannTL · #7 12-02-2007, 12:50 AM

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actually i think you make most of your money from hands like A4s when you flop TP and no one has you outkicked.

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Well, with a four (almost) anyone with an Ace will have me outkicked!! Anyway...

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button folds, BB calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

The K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] made me cringe a tiny bit, and the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] relaxed that, but even another spade wouldn't have made calling the flop the right play. BTW, both UTG+1 and CO showed KQ and split the pot. Thanks to all for the advice.