A Discussion of PF LAG play using Andy Bloch's pf raising theory

[terp]

lol that's pretty much my preflop range

but yeah, tufat is right

[Rainclouds]

Yeah I would never open ATo or KJo UTG and certainly not QTo and KTo UTG+1. Those are hands that are so bad when playing OOP.

And there's a lot more hands that I wouldn't open with there, but I'm tight.

As far as button opening ranges go, given the rest of the field folded, anything between 40% and 100% is okay depending on the blinds (VPIP will be a lot lower since you can't open when someone else opened already). Vs tight blinds I open ATC but vs avid blind defenders I only open with playable hands.

I think choosing to open 85o on the button DOES matter in some situations, cause if the blinds are folding to steals 95% of the time, you are leaving value if you don't steal with trash on the button. But I'm not sure how much this accounts for in the winrate.

[mikechops]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously any fixed strategy like this can get exploited by good players

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocking that a guy who's been studying unexploitable play for like 15 years missed something that's so obv to the common ssnl'er.

Someone should e-mail him and make him aware of this oversight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I don't think it is that obvious. Yeah if you are playing a fixed strategy ridiculously tight or loose, but this range looks reasonably balanced to me. How would you go about exploiting this range? If it's obvious, it shouldn't take too long to explain, right?

[Rainclouds]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously any fixed strategy like this can get exploited by good players

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocking that a guy who's been studying unexploitable play for like 15 years missed something that's so obv to the common ssnl'er.

Someone should e-mail him and make him aware of this oversight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I don't think it is that obvious. Yeah if you are playing a fixed strategy ridiculously tight or loose, but this range looks reasonably balanced to me. How would you go about exploiting this range? If it's obvious, it shouldn't take too long to explain, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's only exploitable if you're playing vs the same good players for thousands and thousands of hands. If you play this fixed strategy, the good players can for example rule out that you could have K9o or 32o if you open UTG, so they can exploit you (a little) at that point. But it's not a big deal.

However, Andy's strategy is geared towards tournament play and in a tournament you don't play a lot of hands vs the same opponents, so there is no chance for them to exploit you on that.

So whether it's obvious or not, it's irrelevant anyway so that will be the reason that Andy doesn't mention it.

Also, I think curious123 was leveling.

[Some9]

take it fwiw

a little hot from the SB and cold from the BTN

[sh58]

i think that the ranges for UTG and MP are too wide, just like tufat and other people said already.

i think that 30/20 or 30/25 is too loose for 100NL, where you can play laggy more sucessfully at 25/20 or so.

my standard UTG range is 22+, AJ+, KQ+.

i think this is a good starting point even for a LAG, then after they get a feel for the table, they can open it up to similar stats to the ones mentioned.

opening KJo UTG at a table of unknowns is suicide

[Luckyz]

open smallpockets utg at fishy nl100(bunch of 50vip donkeys)tables are also suicide

[sh58]

[ QUOTE ]
open smallpockets utg at fishy nl100(bunch of 50vip donkeys)tables are also suicide

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd rather open 22 than KJo UTG in these games. so you will not win the pot very often, but when you do you are gonna stack someone. wheras you are never entirely sure where you are with KJo

[FishSticks]

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, this 30/20-25 style is employed by some successful LAGs but is definitely not the 2p2 "ideal" 22/18 unexploitable TAG pf strategy.

Specifically, his guidelines say to play:

UTG: 19%
MP: 24%
CO: 31%
B: 45%


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read the responses, but my first thought was, just because he might be opening 45% from the button probably doesn't mean he's *playing* 45% from the button. I mean, he might open K7o but he probably won't call a raise with it if UTG opens. Same holds true for a lot of hands, and in later stages of a tourney it's pretty rare that a button gets to open a hand anyways. So, this might not really equate to a 30/25 style after all. Also, preflop discussions about tourney play are pretty irrelevant without considering stacks. Like, SCs and low/mid PPs are very playable with deeper stacks, but when stacks are shallow flat calling a PFR with 76s is just kinda dumb, etc.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, this 30/20-25 style is employed by some successful LAGs but is definitely not the 2p2 "ideal" 22/18 unexploitable TAG pf strategy.

Specifically, his guidelines say to play:

UTG: 19%
MP: 24%
CO: 31%
B: 45%


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read the responses, but my first thought was, just because he might be opening 45% from the button probably doesn't mean he's *playing* 45% from the button. I mean, he might open K7o but he probably won't call a raise with it if UTG opens. Same holds true for a lot of hands, and in later stages of a tourney it's pretty rare that a button gets to open a hand anyways. So, this might not really equate to a 30/25 style after all. Also, preflop discussions about tourney play are pretty irrelevant without considering stacks. Like, SCs and low/mid PPs are very playable with deeper stacks, but when stacks are shallow flat calling a PFR with 76s is just kinda dumb, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Tournaments are very different from cash play. Not just percentages, but types of hands to play, influence of position, importance of blind stealing etc. I don't think there's much to be gained by trying to convert over from recommended tournament ranges, or to use "fixed" preflop ranges in cash games.