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#31
10-24-2007, 02:03 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
I often get that image and play the hand the same way and get paid by AQ or something stupid as well as nailed by the occasional set of aces. if your right about your image then well played. but like another poster said, people tend to over estimate this effect.
Online i dont get that image so my standard line would look like bet/call the flop. check/call the turn (after being raised on the flop) river play is complicated and depends on how the villian plays. If he likes to fold, throw some pot sized bluffs on a lot of the rivers that seemed to make straights, especially if the river is a offsuit seven. if u fill up, check/call if AA is a reasonable part of his range or bet/fold if its only a small part. make a big bet if a spade falls. otherwise check and make a tough choice. players try to hard to "avoid tough spots" as if thats the goal. They should be "avoid tough spots...if its +EV" which is implied, but ignored. Online this is ok because our capacity is better spent playing more tables than fussing about marginal lines. Live I ALWAYS try to take lines with the highest EV even if i know it can put me in a tough spot later. If you give up EV to make decisions easier later then you need to get better at making these decisions. If you dont agree with this then tell me why "short stacking" is any different. Live players have longer(time wise) downswings because they play so few hands an hour that i think they often scarifice too much EV to try escape variance. The irony is that because their games are so soft, these plays have more value than they do online. <font color="brown"> </font> 
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#32
10-24-2007, 02:13 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Two years ago, most of the regulars (AZK, FSU, etc.) begged Limon to post more. His posts probably were more informative on a per post basis than almost any other poster. Now we get this [censored]." I completely agree. Limon is one of the top posters on these forums, hands down. As for whoever claimed to have played more hands and blahblah....you are not as good as limon. Sorry. And not to mention this hand is live and limon has played in this game for many years so he has an idea of the dynamics. He may have even played with said villain. And his word should be taken as the word of god except when he is tearing you up. Then he is just funny. [/ QUOTE ] His word: don't call 98s OOP in what will be a multiway pot. This is amazingly tight. His reasoning when told this was tight was lolz I've played for 20 years. Not exactly the best argument. [/ QUOTE ] that wasnt even close to my reasoning...reading comprehension 101
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#33
10-24-2007, 02:17 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
although Limon has a good point, which is don't play hands out of position against really good people, especially deep, because that is not where you stand to make a lot of money. [/ QUOTE ] this is all that i was saying. my advice was based on the op's description of the villian (i actually pay attention..doh) any other description would elicit a different response. ive played 89 suited from the blind a million times but not against bobby hoff raising from the button...not a good spot.
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#34
10-24-2007, 02:20 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
What is the best turn play? if you check, you're calling this, right? Should we lead here? If I'm shallow im pretty happy about checkshoving. (Or betting and shoving river unimproved) Are we supposed to lead to get value from draw/1pair, and if raised, call and decide on river? (Ie possibly fold unimproved, possibly pay off, etc) Are we supposed to B3B? I think that is suicidal. [/ QUOTE ] i think we're pretty much on the same page. standard would be to check-call, although sometimes i lead believing i'm ahead. getting raised again would change my mind on that, so i agree that a 3bet-shove this deep would be...unwise. if stacks were 200bb or less, i'd crai on turn, but with this depth and a tight player, his stack's not going in with a 1-pair hand.
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#35
10-24-2007, 02:26 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] although Limon has a good point, which is don't play hands out of position against really good people, especially deep, because that is not where you stand to make a lot of money. [/ QUOTE ] this is all that i was saying. my advice was based on the op's description of the villian (i actually pay attention..doh) any other description would elicit a different response. ive played 89 suited from the blind a million times but not against bobby hoff raising from the button...not a good spot. [/ QUOTE ] still, calling pf in the op's spot cannot be a BIG mistake. if it's a mistake at all, it's negligible. assuming that op plays decent postflop, that is.
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#36
10-24-2007, 02:37 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
Mikech,
How low do you go with the SC's here? 56 worthy? 67? Also, I'm sure that it may be a multiway pot that develops (thus your hand gets good pot and implied odds) but we don't close the action which has to play some role. And as stated by limon and repeated by Rob (though he doesn't fully endorse it) and myself, playing these type hands OOP deep against a "good tricky player" is not ideal at all.
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#37
10-24-2007, 02:46 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces.. [/ QUOTE ] since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile. It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ.
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#38
10-24-2007, 03:05 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces.. [/ QUOTE ] since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile. It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ. [/ QUOTE ] random+sick=very good description of my style. i wonder if thats why everytime i post a half dozen guys who reg'd yesterday but already have 1,000,000 posts say im the lamest poster in the history of 2+2, then a year later im me w/ questions about their play. i also think its funny when people asume im an old dude who hasnt played online when, in fact, i was the most active player on the entire west coast at party before the "ban" and had several meetings w/ vikrant to improve the site and add security.
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#40
10-24-2007, 10:24 AM
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Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 10/20 NL villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky hero has been playing LAG Effective stacks are 7K 2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces.. [/ QUOTE ] since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile. It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ. [/ QUOTE ] didnt think that part was a serious response, but if it is, then umm, i dont agree. you cminr a tough player on A98ssx and he only 3bet's a set??? and onlyAK/AQ calls the flop minrz? this reasoning is just bizarre and not true. esp given its 350bb's deep.
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