two river check-raises, deep-stack 25/50/XX live, 1 for value, 1 bluff

[dlpnyc21]

Two contemplated river check raises, 1 as a bluff, 1 for value.

Hand 1--turning a house into a bluff:
Game is playing absolutely insane. 9 handed, about half a milly on the table, I have around 50k, villain has me covered. Villain was up 100k very early on in the night, he is a wealthy businessman who donks out a lot and is also capable of calling with very big hands. One hand I saw earlier, the takeover bet on a 108x all club board, bet the Q non club turn, and value bet the blank river with a random 10 and the villain called him down with J9, making a straight on the turn. Villain and I have no history, he probably thinks I am somewhat of a nit because I am not straddling. Note that we are also playing 72 for 500.

I am in the BB, with 22, he is in the sleeper for 400. Yes, that's 25/50/100/200/400. Few callers, I complete in BB. 2400 in the pot pre. Flop comes 6d4d2x. I donk out 2k. I was thinking of checkraising here, but I didn't want this type of board to get checked through, folds to villain who thinks for a bit then calls. Turn 4. I bet 5k. He very quickly calls. At this point I put him on a combo draw, maybe a straight, I guess he could have a higher house but I'm not sure which one (64 being most likely if he has one). River 4.

What is the best line, bet 8k, or chk fold, or chk raise, or check call? All river actions have merit. If I bet this river I am obviously bluffing, but wouldn't it be much harder to call (from villains perspective) a chk raise as opposed to a river bet? If I check and he chks obviously I can't win in a showdown, I feel he is way more likely to bluff than value bet, as I haven't seen him value bet very thinly over the course of the session. However, he MIGHT even value bet a 6, because he might not view it as a thin value bet, rather, he might view it as "i have a full house--that's a big hand." I am not sure if he is capable of turning a straight into a bluff but he certainly will bluff missed diamonds, If I check and he bets 6k, can I check raise to 20k or will I be zeeboned? Is leading out better here or just give up?

Hand 2: I runner runner it.
Villain in the hand is a well known poker player, persian steve. He is very tricky and has lots of gears and is capable of very big calldowns. I am not exactly sure of what image he has of me other than he was once surprised to learn that I win $ at poker, lol. He has around 35k and I cover. Blinds are 25/50 and he is to my direct left, I am in sb he is in bb. One or two limpers, I complete with Q9cc, he makes it 800 from the bb, and there are two callers, myself and the CO limper, who is a fairly solid/tight player.

Note that we are playing 72o, so there is a massive incentive to play 72 and there have been some huge pots involving 72o earlier on in the night. Calling preflop is pretty horrendous here, and I know this, but it was late night and people were playing insane. (please refrain from preflop jokes).

Advice on all streets welcome this hand.

Flop comes 774 two clubs. I check, villain bets out 900, which is relatively small compared to the size of the pot. CO calls. What is my action and why? I decide to call. Turn is a Q, non club. What is my action and why? I thought very strongly about donking out here but decided I didn't want to create too big of a pot OOP so I decided to chk. Villain bets 2400. CO folds. I call. River is a Q. What is my best line here? If I bet, he might pay off with as little as A high, but obviously he can't call with a hand like 4x or 65 or a gutter. If he has a 7, he will certainly value bet. Not sure which is best.

Say I check and he makes it 3k (again, a small bet). What do you checkraise to?

thanks,

dlpnyc21

[snagglepuss]

hand 1 i would check and evaluate, either calling or folding, more likely to call, and i dislike a CR bluff

hand 2 i like how you played it and think a turn lead would have been bad. i would checkraise biggish, probably 15k.

there may also be merit to leading the river for 2/3ish pot to induce

[AcidKnight]

Hand 1: I check here and see what happens. I think that check/fold and check/call are gonna be the options based on any tells that you pick up or gut feeling at the time. A c/r seems bad.

Hand 2: I don't think that a river lead to induce a raise will work since he will often put you on Qxcc or a 7 if you make this play. Aside from obvious whiffed draws (that aren't A high), how might he play middle pairs like 88-JJ here? If he's gonna check those behind, then I prefer leading. If he's gonna value those, then I like a c/r more.

[king_of_drafts]

I pretty much hate anything but c/f in the first hand, but c-c >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;c/r

Hand two is an easy check raise imo since you have like the only Qx hand possible so you are disguised and stuff

[cts]

yea hand 1 of course you check the river, then you call or fold

hand 2 checkraise big

[Tomcat01]

i like this post and i like how you played your hands to the river (except preflopcall with Q9 ..)

hand 1 looks like chk/call to me. as you said big part of his range are good draws and why should he not bluff that river? i dont like chk/raising because i dont see him valuebetting a lot of better hands wich he will fold to your raise.

hand 2 i like the river chk/raise. you give him another chance to bluff and he might pay off with a 7.

[AAismyfriend]

I like the way you played both of these thus far, and I like a c/c in hand 1. Hand 2 is a must c/r IMO.

[Eagles]

Hand 1
I hate betting because I don't think he ever folds a boat. I don't like c/r because he seems like the type who could be ZOMG I HAVE A FULL HOUSE CALL. So I check and either call or fold depending on live reads etc.

Hand 2 I like your line now I'd c/r there are a bunch of missed draws so you can def be bluffing here but if you bet he's raising almost never so I'd c/r. Villain seems good and can prob vbet thin so I like c/r.

[Chaoslord]

yeah i agree with what was wrote so far, hand1 check-call looks nice, if he folds to a check-raise you had the best hand. hand2 easy check-raise but i would make it very big since your not getting called except he has the 7 and with that its gonna be hard for him to lay it down no matter how much u make it

[dlpnyc21]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i agree with what was wrote so far, hand1 check-call looks nice, if he folds to a check-raise you had the best hand. hand2 easy check-raise but i would make it very big since your not getting called except he has the 7 and with that its gonna be hard for him to lay it down no matter how much u make it

[/ QUOTE ]

do you guys really think villain in hand 1 is calling here with 6x? I think that's by far the biggest part of his house range (not including missed draws). He would range 1010 or better preflop, mayyyybe 99, so when I cr I would be cring specifically to bluff him off 6x. What else can he have really? FWIW, if I donk river I THINK he calls with 6x (he might fold I don't really know, maybe if I bet like 15k or so but that would look fishy). I'm not so sure he calls a cr with it though.