Newbie Question

[srodgers1981]

I've just started out in Hold-Em and have a few questions I'd like to ask. Hopefully I get some answers and be on my way to a (hopefully) successfull career playing.

I've been playing for just over a year now. Started at 2/4 limit and have done ok managed to get my poker stash up to not great, but holding steady anyway. I know there's still a lot to learn.

Been reading SSHE and really like what the book advocates. Started on Hold-Em For Advanced Players... decided I wasn't quite ready for that....

On to the questions:

1. Counting Outs: can anyone suggest or do they know of a program that lets you practice counting outs?.. I'm really having a hard time with that. The basic ones I can figure out but something like 75o with a board of Ac 4d 6s... how do you count you outs and be correct?

2. Counting bets: it's a lot easier to see what the pot size is Online but live I really have a hard time deciding if the pot justifys calling or not. Also, how do you count the bets? If there's three callers, you call, sb/bb call; total bets is 6sb or 5.5 sb?... how do you count that and any futher betting especially in the later rounds?

3. Pot odds: how do you determine pot odds by counting bets? sounds simple but I'm still learning and making to many mistakes I think.

4. Using pot odds: probably another simple thing, but I'm making to many mistakes. If I'm drawing to the nut straight with 4 outs how do I figure all that out so quickly? pot odds have to be greater than 10.5 to one to call... how do I do this? is there a simpler way? am I missing something?.. is there something I should already know when I sit down?

A long post but thanks for taking the time to read and helping a noob.

Steve

[JSmith2007]

These are somewhat difficult questions to answer, but when you understand them and play poker seriously, they become second nature.

#1 - Counting outs is simple. You have to have a read on the villain before you can count your outs. Assuming a A46 board with you holding 75, you're going to assume villain has an ace (not always the right read - but it's read dependent) which your 7 or 5 cannot beat should that come on the turn or river, so you're drawing to the straight to beat his pair of aces. Thus a 3 and an 8 would make your straight, so you have 8 outs, 4 threes and 4 eights. That's best way to describe it - you can't put a way to count them other than counting them to getting a hand to beat what your read on your opponent is.

#2 - I don't play limit live much, so I can't answer this really.

#3 - Not sure again here

#4 - Now this is pretty difficult. There really is no simple way to calculate things quickly in your head other than practice, practice, and more practice. When you realize you have a flush draw against a TPTK hand, you know your odds because you've been in that predicament so many times and know what you need to call getting the right odds or not. It is a game of guessing most of the time, because you do not have the time to go put it into PokerStove or an odds calculator. Most pro players get very good at knowing certain hands as I said, nut flush or straight vs. TPTK sorto f hands, and knowing the odds they need. Just need to practice.

[MNSUgoMAVS!]

I think this will really help you. If you have seen a flop (so there are two cards to come) multiply your outs times 4 to find the percentage of time you make your hand by the river. On the turn, multiply number of outs times 2. So if on the flop you have a flush draw (9 outs) you will make a flush by the river 9x4=36% on the turn you will make it 9x2=18%

Hope this helps and good luck at the table!

[srodgers1981]

MNSUgoMAVS!

Thanks for the post... that makes a lot of sense... using the above example, drawing to the nut flush... how do you use those numbers 36% and 18% with your pot odds? if your in late position and someone bets and then there's a raise, you pot odds vs BEP would not be great enough... I know, implied odds would do the trick though.... is there a way to convert BEP to %?...

Thanks again... your post helped tremendously.....

I'm still learning....

Steve

[pepitannikita]

Hi, and welcome!

Talk about the blind leading the blind. A total noob here myself so maybe you should discount everything I am about to say-- LOL.

But the one part of your question seemed so puzzling to me because it seems to me to be so starightforward a thing that I decided I would risk looking like a total poker retardo and post anyway. So maybe someone who really knows what they are talking about can come along and clean up after me and tell me why I am so dumb that I thought it was easy and what I am missing here.

It's the thing about COUNTING OUTS that I am referring to.

The example you gave, you have an open-ended straight draw. Any 3 or any 8 would give you a straight. So you have eight outs.

What confused me was when you said that the basic ones you could figure out and then gave the example of that open-ended straight draw as being one that troubled you. Because, you see, to me, that example is exactly what I would use as an example of one of "the basic ones!"

It just comes up so often that you see it's an open-ended and you know it's eight outs. Okay, so let me have it-- what am I missing? LOL.

If you're on a flush draw you have nine outs. Two of the 13 of the suit are in your hand and two are on the board so there's nine left that can make your flush for you.

These were the first two "outs" I learned.

Now it gets a bit more complicated when you're calculating outs and it's not a straightforward sort of board in that even if you make your hand, you're not sure you will have the best hand. Like if you're figuring on your outs for a straight but there's a flush out there. In that case, you have to keep in mind that one of your outs for each number (both the high and low card that would complete the straight) might be dead because they'd give the flush draw his hand and so instead of calculating odds then using the 8-outs number, you would want to use the 6-outs instead.

Does this make sense?

It did to me, that's how I understood it to be and I need to find out if I need to adjust my thinking!

My "advice" in his area is to go slowly and to realize that just like when learning to drive a car, you get in and at first there's so many things to frigging THINK about, putting in the key, adjusting the seat and mirror, etc. etc. After awhile it's all mindless and automatic.

You don't need to try to memorize a whole chart. Just start with two or three different situations, basic things like flush draws and straight draws, that you know will be coming up in you poker life repeatedly. Memorize those. Pay attention to how things change then when the board is paired. When you yourself have both a flush draw AND a straight draw. Incorporate THOSE elements then into your "memorized" brain space.

Little by little, as you build upon the information you already have and know, you can start to assimilate other pieces then, too. Meanwhile, that will give you a bit of confidence and you can also practice counting outs on the fly with different hands.

Eventually, you'll just "know" all these things at a glance simply from the repetition of situations in which they have come up.

I am interested in hearing how others approach this because this is so very fundamental that if I am completely off base here, I will eat a deck of cards for punishment!

[pepitannikita]

Took me so long to hunt-and-peck on the keyboard to type out my roundabout, longwinded reply that there were already other replies by the time I submitted mine even though I had been the first to respond when I began typing....LOL.

After having read the others' replies, I am glad that I didn't steer you off course.

I am glad you posted your questions, though, because I am learning from the answers here now, too!

[srodgers1981]

Okay, Okay… My example wasn’t the best, but hey! I’m still learning….

Using the example you mentioned of making A Straight with two flush cards out. How would you count the outs? JsTd with a board of Ac Qc 8h Any K or 9 makes The Straight so that’s 8 outs, but the Kc 9c puts 3 clubs out.

Do you count the Kc9c as ½ out or not at all? That would leave you with 7 or 6 outs. Pot odds have to be greater than 5.6/6.7 to 1 (have a really hard time using pot odds and BEP correctly)

I’m wondering if I should if there’s some things I should already know, like

9 outs = flush draw
8 outs = open straight

Anything else I should know just sitting at the table?

If you have more than 8 outs, are you going to the River know matter what and hoping you make your hand?... using the flush draw, if you’re in late position and there’s a call, raise, and reraise.. now what?... if you make your flush you win, but if you miss you lose big… I just know that pot odds/implied odds/BEP come into play here.

Thanks again for the replies…. I’m still learning….

[PokerXanadu]

#1. First step is to put your opponent(s) on a hand. What are they likely to be holding? For example, if they are likely to have the four flush, then you can't count the flush cards as part of your outs. There aren't any more hard and fast rules to counting outs (like fd = 9 outs) that you should know. Every hand is different, and you should count your outs each time. For instance, if you have a flush draw, you don't have 9 outs if your opponent has a set - you can't count the outs that would pair the board.

2. I don't count the bets; I count the pot. Just look at the chips in the pot and count em up. You can ask the dealer to spread the pot to make it easier to count. In pot limit, you can just ask the dealer to count it for you.

3. For pot odds, count the pot (not the bets). Then calculate how much it costs to call the bet versus the amount you can win. For example, if there is $100 in the pot and someone bets $50, it costs you $50 to win $150 (the $100 already in the pot plus the $50 bet). So you are getting 3 to 1 on your money. You also have to factor in things like: Are there any players yet to act after you? Are they likely to call the bet, adding more money to the pot? What is that chance that they will raise, making it cost me more to stay in?

4. The 4/2 rule, as mentioned by MNSUgoMAVS!, is the easy method. However, the 4/2 rule is slightly askew - by about 10%. If you need better accuracy: On the flop multiply your outs by 4 and then subtract 10% of the result to get your odds to hit your hand by the river. On the turn, multiply your outs by 2 and then add 10% of the result to get your odds to hit your hand by the river. Also, the math falls apart when you have a large number of outs (like a flush draw and a straight draw and overs). In such instances, if you use the rule of four, it will look like you have an 85% or more chance of winning. Whenever the figures work out like that, you are usually about 65% to win (assuming your opponent is ahead in the hand at the moment).

When applying pot odds, don't forget that on the flop your odds to win are based on seeing it all the way to the river. If you are chasing a flush, straight, etc., you have to also figure in that it will probably cost you more on the turn to see the river card. If you have multiple draws and the odds say you are 60% or better to win the hand, it's a good time to reraise. But if you are chasing just 8 or 9 outs, be careful about how much money you put in the pot - it's easy to get pot committed and it will cost you a lot to see that last card, when you are way behind.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have more than 8 outs, are you going to the River know matter what and hoping you make your hand?... using the flush draw, if you’re in late position and there’s a call, raise, and reraise.. now what?... if you make your flush you win, but if you miss you lose big… I just know that pot odds/implied odds/BEP come into play here.

Thanks again for the replies…. I’m still learning….

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to assume that you are talking about NLHE since LHE is a different beast. If you are on the river with 8 outs that means you only have about a 15% chance to win. Not good. Don't keep calling down bets to try and hit your OESD.

When you calculate your outs don't forget to put your opponent on a hand since this is the 2nd half of the pot odds equation. Just because you are getting 4:1 doesn't mean you are at most a 4:1 dog. You could easily be an 8:1 dog. Is the board paired? Your flush outs may now be damaged.

The 2x/4x rule is a great one to learn and use regularly. Practice it on every flop. It's not 100% accurate but it will give you great information and you may find you are in a coin flip when you thought you were a 3:2 dog.

Make sure you know your opponents stack sizes. There's no sense re-raising all in on just a flush draw if you won't be able to pick up a large stack (this is the basis for implied odds). This is a generalization but you'll get more experienced at it.

As for your second question about flush draw late position, call, raise, re-raise: You fold unless you have the nut flush draw and even then you look at the board makeup and at the stack sizes and you still probably fold. You don't have a hand yet so why would you want to get involved with re-raises. You're going to be in a squeeze play with you as the jelly. Over time you'll learn more and more so don't fret it now. There may be times that you'll push that hand so you can isolate the one player.