Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > PL/NL Texas Hold'em > Full Ring

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:43 PM
SABR42 SABR42 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: LAGing it up
Posts: 5,155
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

Smart Money: I like the bluff, but I think you can get away with a smaller overbet.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:52 PM
Smart Money Smart Money is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

[ QUOTE ]
Smart Money: I like the bluff, but I think you can get away with a smaller overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Good point. There is an optimal overbet calculated by:

(p(villain folding) * $25) - (p(villain holds a 7) * $overbet)

If we bet too little, it decreases the probability of the villain folding a split pot, but it also reduces our loss when we are beat and vice versa.

However, when the probability of the villain having a hand that beats us is very small (as in this example) then it pays to keep the overbet large.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-27-2007, 11:05 PM
Smart Money Smart Money is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

Here's another example from the same session:

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $191.90
Hero (BB): $203.70
UTG: $90.20
UTG+1: $177.70
MP1: $222.40
MP2: $176.10
CO: $70
BTN: $33

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
6 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $6</font>, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $8</font>, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($28) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $16</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $32</font>, SB calls $16

River: ($92) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $157.70 and is All-In</font>, SB folds

Results: $92 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and WON $89 (+$43 NET)


The villain actually folded an Ace here. (During the next hand he typed in the chat box that he had "made a sick fold.)"
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-27-2007, 11:24 PM
threads13 threads13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: thread13.com
Posts: 2,681
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A less common, but effective, overbet is when the river ensures the pot is [almost certainly] split but you represent a stronger hand.

Here is an example from this afternoon where the [tightish] villain almost certainly has an Ace but the probability of him having a 7 kicker is very slim- making the overbet a +EV move.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $204.35
SB: $196
Hero (BB): $188
UTG: $203.85
MP: $291.70
CO: $405.45

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $2, 4 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($5) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4</font>, UTG calls $4

Turn: ($13) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $20</font>, Hero calls $10

River: ($53) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $162 and is All-In</font>, UTG folds

Results: $53 Pot ($2.65 Rake)
Hero mucked Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and WON $50.35 (+$24.35 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty bad unless you actually have a 7. i agree you will be folding out a lot of chopping hands, but i don't think the pot is anywhere near big enough to make this kind of play. you're risking 180 to win 50, and the times you are called you're often getting smoked.

that being said, his turn bet does polarize his hand towards ace high straights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think it is a good bet to make on this board as your hand will specifically be the complete nuts if you overbet this board. I really think its a matter of multilevel thinking.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-27-2007, 11:25 PM
Bluegrassplayer Bluegrassplayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 350
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

I like overbets for semi bluffs a lot. Here is an example from a live game I was playing:

Preflop I had around 390 in chips, the opponent had around 500. This was 1/2. I was on the button and he was BB

Folded to me with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I raised to 12.

BB raised to 30. I called.

Flop came ($62) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] He bet 30 and I called.

Turn: ($122) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] He bet 70 and I moved all in for 270 on top.

I think that holdings like big slick have some fold equity here, as well as Aces, and surely queens. 7/8 is definitely in my range, as well as 10s or 9s, or even 10/9. At least this is what was going through my head I'd appreciate critiques.

I think that the big key to this play, however, is to never do it twice to the same opponent.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:14 AM
Bluegrassplayer Bluegrassplayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Denver
Posts: 350
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

[ QUOTE ]

The villain actually folded an Ace here. (During the next hand he typed in the chat box that he had "made a sick fold.)"

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure he actually folded his pocket queens because he thought you had aces.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:51 AM
effang effang is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,489
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

[ QUOTE ]
Here's another example from the same session:

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $191.90
Hero (BB): $203.70
UTG: $90.20
UTG+1: $177.70
MP1: $222.40
MP2: $176.10
CO: $70
BTN: $33

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
6 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $6</font>, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $8</font>, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($28) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $16</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $32</font>, SB calls $16

River: ($92) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $157.70 and is All-In</font>, SB folds

Results: $92 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and WON $89 (+$43 NET)


The villain actually folded an Ace here. (During the next hand he typed in the chat box that he had "made a sick fold.)"

[/ QUOTE ]

the two hands aren't very similar. I like this one a lot, and it's fine. he rarely ever has a 2 here and if he's good he should be c/c all the time.

in the first example, is there a converter error? on the river there is 53 in the pot, UTG covers, so you are betting 162 into a 53 dollar pot. maybe i'm missing something here...
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:21 AM
Smart Money Smart Money is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

[ QUOTE ]

in the first example, is there a converter error? on the river there is 53 in the pot, UTG covers, so you are betting 162 into a 53 dollar pot. maybe i'm missing something here...

[/ QUOTE ]

You already have 50% equity in the pot (as 95% of the time we are looking at a split here) so if the hand is checked through then we will pick up half of the current pot.

We are trying to steal the other half, ~$25.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:25 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,268
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

Here's an example of overbetting for value- basically I was pretty sure shortie had a a straight and wasn't folding because he was comitted, and the bigger stack either had a straight or he didn't, but he was likely calling/folding regardless of my bet size. I think I had to raise here because a diamond or board pairing could dampen my action, and any raise is going to be threatening given the re-raise already in front of me, so might as well go for it all. Plus, a push has the bonus of looking slightly absurd.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $13
UTG+1: $37.50
MP1: $139.35
MP2: $21.30
CO: $23.95
Button: $17.45
SB: $46.20
Hero: $50

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($2, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.75</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises to $5.25</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $49.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 calls all-in $33.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 calls all-in $15.55</font>.
Uncalled bets: $12.5 returned to Hero.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($80.6, 0 player + 3 all-in - Main pot: $64.4, Sidepot 1: $32.4)


Results:
Final pot: $80.6
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:35 AM
xxrod17xx xxrod17xx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Grinding out the Micro\'s
Posts: 732
Default Re: Overbetting: When to use it?

I have overbet the pot PF with AA or KK OOP (say in the blinds) against a bunch of limpers. This is at uNL of course. I have found that I thin the field down to 1 or 2 callers (you always get at least 1 at uNL) and they are usually calling with hands like a smaller pair that has the least chance of running me down post flop. Or you find someone who is a little deeper than your pf-raise and shoves into you with like 88. I looked for a while to find one of these in my PT I am going to bed and maybe ill find an example later. As far as SPR's go this makes playing these hands OOP so easy...its just a shove on the flop at this point.

This is only for uNL I havent even tried it at 25NL only at 10NL.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.