3-betting Light at commerce ONLY

[Bicycles_Biatch]

Recently I have been running into the same situation and I'm trying to sort out if it's positive EV.

The situation is this... I RARELY (and I mean RARELY) get 4 bet. I'm talking about 30-40 sessions of 5-10 hours each session in the commerce 20-40 game.

I don't know if it's coincidence, game selection, or my image as a player... but I'm literally never getting 4-bet by hands like JJ, AK, AQ and sometimes even QQ.

By no stretch of the imagination do I exude the image of a super tight rock... but for some reason I'm just not getting capped (commerce cap is 4 bets). It's almost as though players at the 20-40 limit feel that the 4-banger is reserved for AA and KK only, no matter who their opponent is.

Due to this trend... I have found myself 3-betting light against an open raiser way more often than I believe is optimal.

This style has in turn lead me to some NASTY variance over the last 3 months. I'm still winning... but the swings are gross.

When other players are missing and not pairing their big cards, I'm winning massive pots on the turn... often without improving. However, when people are ahead post flop, I usually get stuck since I now have the odds to call down or try to improve due to how much I have bloated the pot.

I guess the situation that is coming up most often is when I 3 bet an open raiser with a hand like 66 or two suited broadway cards like KQ. I'm clearing out the blinds and usually taking this hand 2-3 handed as either a slight favorite or a slight dog. In position I'll take this scenario all day long; especially against a player who will rarely try to get to show-down with a hand like unimproved AK.

So far it's working... then again... I sometimes don't think I have the mental fortitude to fade 4-5 rack swings in any game [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Thoughts? Has anyone else found themselves going BUCK wild with 3-betting at the weaker commerce games?

[tessarji]

Yes, I'm a LAG also.

[andyfox]

I note that you say you are frequently against players who will rarely try to get to showdown with unimproved A-K. This backs up what I have been saying for some time now, that mid-stakes players will often be less inclined to play on beyond the turn when you have 3-bet pre-flop than when you have not. They should continue on more often, since they have better odds to do so, but they don't.

You also say you then find yourself "stuck" continuing on since you now have proper odds to do so. If you're getting the proper odds, and you are against passive players who will let you buy the pot more often than more savvy opponents, you are doing well. And you are gaining valuable experience.

In a bigger game, I would tell you that you have to be careful because if you're showing down 6-6 or K-Q a lot after having 3-bet preflop you're going to get 4-bet a lot and not find yourself against passive opponents too much. But in the 20-40 it sounds like you're not being pressured too much.

[n.s.]

[ QUOTE ]
When other players are missing and not pairing their big cards, I'm winning massive pots on the turn... often without improving. However, when people are ahead post flop, I usually get stuck since I now have the odds to call down or try to improve due to how much I have bloated the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just a guess, but I think you might be taking this concept too far and calling down too much. Even if the pot is bloated, you're not usually going to have odds to call with a 2 or 3 outer, which is where you'll often be if you are behind with hands like KJs against QQ or AK. It's going to be a high-variance play style regardless, but if you can find just a few more spots to fold when you are way behind you could reduce your swings by a good bit.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When other players are missing and not pairing their big cards, I'm winning massive pots on the turn... often without improving. However, when people are ahead post flop, I usually get stuck since I now have the odds to call down or try to improve due to how much I have bloated the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just a guess, but I think you might be taking this concept too far and calling down too much. Even if the pot is bloated, you're not usually going to have odds to call with a 2 or 3 outer, which is where you'll often be if you are behind with hands like KJs against QQ or AK. It's going to be a high-variance play style regardless, but if you can find just a few more spots to fold when you are way behind you could reduce your swings by a good bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... this is the weird double edge sword of this style of play.

Even though you get less people "pushing back" preflop... I find people betting weaker hands / draws post flop than they normally would. Due to this... I'm having a REALLY hard time assigning value to peoples hands.

A lot of times I've gone into default call down mode without thinking (with something like middle pair)... just to find out on the river I was either crushed (should have folded)... or way ahead (should have raised / charged draws more bets).

I guess it's just hard for me to adjust my preflop aggression with optimal post flop play.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When other players are missing and not pairing their big cards, I'm winning massive pots on the turn... often without improving. However, when people are ahead post flop, I usually get stuck since I now have the odds to call down or try to improve due to how much I have bloated the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just a guess, but I think you might be taking this concept too far and calling down too much. Even if the pot is bloated, you're not usually going to have odds to call with a 2 or 3 outer, which is where you'll often be if you are behind with hands like KJs against QQ or AK. It's going to be a high-variance play style regardless, but if you can find just a few more spots to fold when you are way behind you could reduce your swings by a good bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... this is the weird double edge sword of this style of play.

Even though you get less people "pushing back" preflop... I find people betting weaker hands / draws post flop than they normally would. Due to this... I'm having a REALLY hard time assigning value to peoples hands.

A lot of times I've gone into default call down mode without thinking (with something like middle pair)... just to find out on the river I was either crushed (should have folded)... or way ahead (should have raised / charged draws more bets).

I guess it's just hard for me to adjust my preflop aggression with optimal post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you are running into is the fact that poker is a game of incomplete information. With the way you are playing some hands, which I like as long as you don't over do it, you are creating more confusion for your opponent, but it sounds like you may also be creating more confusion for yourself as well.

I think in the Comm 20 you can definitely use this variance of play in select spots and it can be very profitable. However, you are definitely going to experience more variance, but when you run hot you will win boats of money. Running bad or over using the play and allowing people to catch on is risky b/c then people will lose respect for you and then you will have to start playing a lot of big pots b/c people will disregard your play.

Overall, the 20 game is good enough that you don't need to make this play at all and still take down a lot of money. I would say that using it limited amounts of time, is ok... you know a couple two maybe three times a session. More then that and people will start to catch on and begin to aply pressure to you.

[mike l.]

lol it's not just you. the fact is 95+% of so cal 20-40 players almost never cap with anything except AA and KK.

[Munchkin Mayor]

[ QUOTE ]
I have found myself 3-betting light against an open raiser way more often than I believe is optimal.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think your assessment is correct.

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
I note that you say you are frequently against players who will rarely try to get to showdown with unimproved A-K. This backs up what I have been saying for some time now, that mid-stakes players will often be less inclined to play on beyond the turn when you have 3-bet pre-flop than when you have not. They should continue on more often, since they have better odds to do so, but they don't.

You also say you then find yourself "stuck" continuing on since you now have proper odds to do so. If you're getting the proper odds, and you are against passive players who will let you buy the pot more often than more savvy opponents, you are doing well. And you are gaining valuable experience.

In a bigger game, I would tell you that you have to be careful because if you're showing down 6-6 or K-Q a lot after having 3-bet preflop you're going to get 4-bet a lot and not find yourself against passive opponents too much. But in the 20-40 it sounds like you're not being pressured too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post, dude.

--Nate

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]

I guess the situation that is coming up most often is when I 3 bet an open raiser with a hand like 66 or two suited broadway cards like KQ. I'm clearing out the blinds and usually taking this hand 2-3 handed as either a slight favorite or a slight dog. In position I'll take this scenario all day long; especially against a player who will rarely try to get to show-down with a hand like unimproved AK.

So far it's working... then again... I sometimes don't think I have the mental fortitude to fade 4-5 rack swings in any game

Thoughts? Has anyone else found themselves going BUCK wild with 3-betting at the weaker commerce games?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have this wrong. You are acutually going to be a slight favorite or a BIG dog. In all honesty, after reading your posts, I think you would be at least a little better off tightening up until your postflop play improves. You are likely dragging yourself through excessive swings. Now, don't get me wrong, I am all for aggressively isolating bad playing limpers. I just think you need to be a little careful 3 betting light in the 20 since they tend to play so much more passively and their range will often have you in bad shape. As always this will be opponent specific.