Weird Floor Decision at Wynn

[pfapfap]

Just another note that everyone should think of this kind of thing when you're sitting at eTables in ten years. Me, I prefer cards and chips, but this is exactly the sort of thing on a long list of reasons for rooms to switch.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Who DIDN'T MAKE THINGS CLEAR.

This problem could have been completely avoided. When someone asks how much does he have, it's up to the dealer to make sure that amount is both correct and clearly announced.

The floor just screwed it up worse, since apparently hearsay from some guy overrides the actual counts of the bets being made at the table.

This hand also illustrates why cash should not be allowed on the table, particularly in bigger games where it's so easy to confuse (or intentionally hide) amounts. Cash is angle shot city waiting to happen, while chips don't afford such luxuries to the unscrupulous player.

[tourney guy]

Al - I am trying to understand this.

Player A asks Player B what he is playing behind, he says 5 $100 bills.

Player A goes all in based on that representation, player B calls.

If PLayer B wins the hand, are you telling me player A would have to pay 6 $100 bills when the player B declared 5?????

I think you know that is not true, and any floor would rule that if player B said 5 bills, A would owe 5 bills.

The converse has got to be true as well.

If you accept another player's representation of his stack, and it is verbal, it will always stand.

Secondly, are you telling me the dealer is supposed to interject, reach into the stack of another player and count bills and chips????

No way, no dealer procedure I have ever read or writted would prescribe that. Dealer only counts down stacks AT THE REQUEST OF THE PLAYER, NOT ON HIS/HER OWN.

If you ever reachHed into my stack with out my permission, you definitely wouldn't like it.

Cash is only an angle shot if the player allows it to be an angle shot.

When I play 5/10 NL, and I have face a big bet, I ask THE PLAYER, NOT THE DEALER, TO RUN DOWN TO FUNDS TO VERIFY THEM.

Could you imagine what Sam Farha or Mike Matusow would do if one of those dealers on the TV show reached over and started breaking bricks and counting down bills?????

Get real.

[Jack Bando]

Tourney, I think Al's saying after B says how much he bet, Dealer should make sure that is correct and was heard. If B bets $1000 AI, the dealer should correct him if he says $800 or $1300 or "It's (incoherent answer here) total."

[tourney guy]

Jack - You seem fairly articulate, so I'll ask you.

Don't you trhink the person who REALLY should make sure that it is correct is the PLAYER IN THE HAND, much moreso than the dealer????

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
The converse has got to be true as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

The converse does not have to be true. And should not be true. This would mean a player could effectively take money of the table simply by giving a false count,

[tourney guy]

psandman - what responsibility do you bear to ensure the information you are getting from another player is accurate??

[Jack Bando]

[ QUOTE ]
Jack - You seem fairly articulate, so I'll ask you.

Don't you trhink the person who REALLY should make sure that it is correct is the PLAYER IN THE HAND, much moreso than the dealer????

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no Rotter/Al/RR/TT/YTF/whoever I'm forgetting, but I'll try.

If it's a seat 5 vs 6, they can easily see each others stacks. But a 3 vs 7, does the one calling have to get up and walk to the other's seat to check the amount?

It's someitmes hard to see how many chips someone has due to lighting,distance, chips stacking style (10 vs 20 vs 17 per stack, or if the guy plays out of the rack).

So it's simple, if you don't know the amount ask the bettor/dealer to count it out. You can't ask the dealer how much someone has that isn't bet, but you can ask how much a bet is.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
psandman - what responsibility do you bear to ensure the information you are getting from another player is accurate??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to act reasonably under the circumstances. If a player gives you a count which is obviously inaccurate you shouldn't be able to rely on it. If its obvious that the other player was just giving you a roiugh estimate then you shouldn't be permitted to rely on it as a definative amount.ut when it comes to bills, if you see him count them and its not obviously inaccuarte you should be reasonably able to rely on his count.

[tourney guy]

Jack and psandman - We are starting to close the gap here.

Your assertions about a player not relying on a players verbal count are for sure true.

PLayer who has to act can always ask for an exact count at any time.

Problem here is that the player DID NOT ASK for an exact count. He took the other players word, and for that, I as a floor and former cardroom manager, could not allow him to have it both ways.

If he acted, believing the bill total was 5, then 5 has to be in action, especially if it seems accurate. He cannot win 6 and only pay 5, that is completely unacceptable and flies in the face of fairness.

What is the role of the dealer.....IMO....very limited. He is not an advocate to reading bills or stacks on his/her own. He/She is there to run the game.

If a player doesn't ask for total accuracy of a tablew stake, then he/she bears the brunt of the error.

It is very similar to the other post where the guy cries about having his cards mucked.

He took it the wrong way.....I am not saying the dealer is right, or good, or not a complete chump.

What I am saying is that, based on 20+ years in gaming, is that you can only rely on yourself, and any post which does not begin with, 'I screwed up and did not protect my cards' is weak and unaccetable to me, dealer error/vindication not withstanding.

In this case, pLayer A asked what the bills were, believed, based on the asnwer and the stack in question that the stack was accurate, and bet accordingly.

He has only HIMSELF to blame, not the dealer or other player, if is found to be inaccurate after the action is complete.

Simple to me.