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  #51  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:20 PM
Brad1970 Brad1970 is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
Brad, JAK,

I'll give you a more thorough answer later, but I do need to get back to work. The short answer is, what are the two greatest commandments? First is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength," and the second is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Those are spelled out in no uncertain terms, and to them, all else is peripheral. The other thing I bear in mind is that, at least to me, the words of St. Paul are secondary to the words of Jesus. St. Paul was a good man, but a man just the same, and he was generally tougher on the drunkards and the fornicators et al. than Jesus was. With that all in mind, if the church is to be spreading a message that misses Christ's mark, I'd prefer they spread one that is overly permissive, accepting and loving than a message that is overwrought with hate, division, and exclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I look forward to it. Good discussion.
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  #52  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:25 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

Speaking of the Ten Commandments. One was ended in the New Testament. Do you know which one, and do you know why? I admit that "do you know why" is a loaded question.
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  #53  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:44 PM
JMP300z JMP300z is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

Forgive me for not having the time to read this entire thread and respond in kind (I have 1100 questions on pediatric dentistry and 400 note cards on oral pathology to study for tomorrow's finals) but I wanted to add my thoughts.

The fundamentalists power may or may not be waning but it is certainly still scarily strong. If you watched the youtube republican debate last night you could see how hard each candidate was working to cater to a christian nation. How Romney ate his abortion words from however long ago, how Guiliani is being openly criticized for his interpretation of the bible. This scares me for a reason that has already been outlined above, that the fundamentalists views on issues occasionally differ in many ways from the supposedly kind hearted/tolerant/generous bible *another issue entirely. Also it bothers me on another level because I personally believe it ridiculous that Bush claims to talk to god or our Georgia governor spends his time outside praying for rain during this drought.

My issue with fundamentalists and many Christians in general has to do with this so called core issue of tolerance. This is far and away the last thing I see being practiced by christians (I will admit I live in Augusta Georgia, I will also admit that I sometimes do not have tolerance for them and this slants my viewpoint).

How does the view that anyone without your specific religion will burn in hell for all eternity exhibit tolerance?

On a personal experience level, I bow my head in silence when there are prayers at school related functions. I walk by the giant christmas tree purchased with school funds every day and smile at its cheer. I do not push my own lack of faith on people at every opportunity the same way our waiting rooms at school are filled with christian publications and pamphlets are found in the bathrooms and operatories. Those are acts of tolerance.

There is no tolerance involved in the situation I am finding myself in now at school. The small, highly competitive residency I was recently fortunate enough and busted my ass for four years enough to be accepted to now supposedly is up in arms about my facebook profile religious preference-Athiest. How they accessed this? Why they care? To be honest I had forgotten it was up there. I am suddenly quote "an embarrassment" and "a regret" to people who I have known well for years. I was ignored today by the department head who was at my bar mitzvah when I was 13. Alas, this is not just christians, one of the few residencts who is jewish said I was a disgrace to my people and it pissed him the hell off and then he brought up his assumption that I had no regard for the holocaust.

OK i guess you get the point...sorry I got somewhat personal.

-JP
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  #54  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:56 PM
Blarg Blarg is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

Unfortunately, it's still okay to hate and ostracize atheists, and nobody is as secure in their hatred as someone who thinks he has god on his side.
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  #55  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:12 PM
Enrique Enrique is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

I am shocked at the response you got for putting "Atheist" on facebook. A friend of mine, put it out too, because he got afraid (in certain nations, like Iran, being atheist is worse than not being the religion of the majority).

It is sad that there's so much intolerance, it should also be unChristian, given that Christ was a very tolerant man.

The main problem with fundamentalists is the lack of tolerance for other ways of life. I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they want to believe as long as they don't judge others for not believing the same.
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  #56  
Old 11-29-2007, 09:43 PM
J.A.K. J.A.K. is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

The tolerance issue is somewhat disingenuous, in that the expectation is ALWAYS that the church is the one to yield, reinterpret, or annul it's position on scripture rather than the individual yield to the principle. I suspect it's because the principle is often suggested by a hypocrite through invective. However, this is a non-issue for non-believers because you are not bound by the Christian faith.

My hipocrisy lies in the fact that I know certain acts to be wrong according to my faith (i.e. lying, getting drunk) but I do them at times anyway. But I do not desire the scripture to be less condemning or more "tolerant" of such things. It is my duty to overcome these, so "hate the sin and love the sinner" is not a license for perpetuity. "He that is without sin cast the first stone" was followed by "go and sin no more". But I note that Christ was alone with her when he said the last part which I think is significant because the things that matter are always between the individual and God.

I feel in interpreting much of the scripture the fundy will see what he wants as will the agnostic, atheist, and even myself. It is a struggle to truly read with an open heart and open mind when we are taught that "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) and "Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they search for many schemes." (Ecc 7:29)
The kookie fringe is not hard to spot and avoid, but getting out of my own way is another matter.
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  #57  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:29 PM
MrWookie MrWookie is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

JAK,

I don't think doing things you know to be wrong is necessarily hypocrisy. Humans are weak, and we can't always be perfect, even if we know what to do. The hypocrisy is when we judge and condemn others for their shortcomings while trying to establish our own righteousness. A smoker admonishing people not to start smoking is not necessarily a hypocrite. He may just be a guy who screwed up and is now an addict, no matter how much he'd like to shake his addiction. A DEA agent who smokes reefer on the side is a hypocrite, though.

There's a difference between teaching the scripture and enforcing the scripture, and you can definitely do one without the other.

There's a whole lot to read in the casting stones story. I've always read the concluding "go, and sin no more," not as a command meant to strike fear into the heart of the adulteress, but as a proclamation of her freedom. She is no longer a slave to her sin and its consequences, but she is free to breathe in the fresh air of a better life. She'll probably slip up again, but she'll still know to whom to turn to shed the chains for her once again.

Great passages at the end there, and very true.
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  #58  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:19 AM
Brad1970 Brad1970 is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
Brad, JAK,

I'll give you a more thorough answer later, but I do need to get back to work. The short answer is, what are the two greatest commandments? First is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength," and the second is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Those are spelled out in no uncertain terms, and to them, all else is peripheral. The other thing I bear in mind is that, at least to me, the words of St. Paul are secondary to the words of Jesus. St. Paul was a good man, but a man just the same, and he was generally tougher on the drunkards and the fornicators et al. than Jesus was. With that all in mind, if the church is to be spreading a message that misses Christ's mark, I'd prefer they spread one that is overly permissive, accepting and loving than a message that is overwrought with hate, division, and exclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wookie,

After sleeping on this thread overnight, there is a rebuttal to your thoughts that came to mind. While I don't totally disagree with what you are saying, I believe that the 'ugly' facts of the Bible, if you will, such as the wages of sin is death and that Hell is a real place must be studied, taught, & preached in our churches. Sadly, at times, it is not. That is exactly what Satan wants...makes his job easier. The end result is you wind up with a crop of Christians who believe there is no hell & even if there was, God is a loving God & wouldn't send anyone there. I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail. IMO, that fear factor/hardcore truth needs to be addressed right along with the warm & fuzzy parts that everybody likes to hear. Afterall, it is part of the gospel.
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  #59  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:47 AM
MrWookie MrWookie is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

Brad,

First, I agree. However, as I mentioned in my last post in this thread, there's a difference between teaching the scripture and enforcing the scripture, and there's a difference between teaching about Hell and threatening Hell. I don't take issue with the teachers. I take issue with the enforcers and the threateners.

Second, though, I would argue that even if a church misses the mark and doesn't teach the parts of scripture about Hell, if it still gets its members to obey the two most important commandments, little is actually lost. When it comes down to it, Hell is largely irrelevant to someone who obeys the first two commandments. They certainly won't be going there, and even if they followed the two greatest commandments perfectly, they wouldn't be the ones to decide who goes there and who doesn't. Is a Christian education without any knowledge of hell incomplete? Yes, of course. Is the lack of knowledge about hell on its own a significant barrier to a relationship with God in this world or the next? No, not really.
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  #60  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:29 PM
JMP300z JMP300z is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
I take issue with the enforcers and the threateners.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Wookie, I appreciate your comments and your considerate beliefs. However, is not the nature of god with respect to hell one of an enforcer and a threatener? I just thought of one response...is this negated by his leaving one simple out through jesus?

-JP
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