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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:28 AM
vmacosta vmacosta is offline
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Default AllIn preflop post

In this post in highstakes:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD

There is an agro player raising the button and hero has A7o in BB. Allin, a well-respected high limit reg claims he would DEF not 3-bet Ao nand many other aces:

"Unimproved postflop, with A7o and the lead, you'll rarely be getting better hands to fold or worse hands to call (incorrectly), meaning that if you reraise preflop it's got to be for value. Your equity with A7o vs a button opening range is around 52-53%, which generally isn't a big enough edge to push for value.


You know how when you're on the turn/river you need well above 50% equity to raise purely for value (67% when they're always reraising correctly and never folding)? The same applies preflop, in that you need well above 50% to reraise for value because you re-open the betting (the fact that he/she may delay reraising better hands by opting not to cap is meaningless if we're going to autobet the flop anyway).


So basically I'm saying the nature of A7o is that reraising = value raise, not a bluff, and that A7o isn't strong enough to value raise.


Of course if you had QJs, hand with similar equity vs a button opening range, the benefit of taking the lead is that you'll frequently bluff out better hands postflop.


In answer to which Ax I'd 3-bet, I'd only do it if I felt that the value was there - my test is whether I'd be able to correctly value bet the river unimproved much. So probably AQ/AJ (which are around 60% equity in this spot), but if the opponent doesn't check behind the flop much, then I'll tend to call these hands preflop anyway. "

What do you guys think? Particularly the stuff about opening the door to a cap...
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:40 AM
Hobbs. Hobbs. is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

It makes a lot of sense to me. I will say though that a couple of reasons for 3-betting some aces are for metagame game and easy of play postflop (equity realization). As far as metagame goes (only really important against people we play with often) we would much prefer to have a 'don't [censored] with my blind' image that might cut down on your opponents stealing range in the future. As far as ease of play goes postflop, against somebody with a fairly wide opening range it becomes somewhat hard to play Ax/Kx UIed OOP. Very often when we take the initiative away we have an easier time winning the smaller pots when we are ahead.
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:32 AM
Oink Oink is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

Sorry for idiot reply, but statandard?

Pretty good post tho. I agree with about everything in it. I always get a good laugh when people 3-bet me with A2o out of the BB

EDIT: ATo/A9o is usually around where I 3-bet
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:46 AM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

Yeah, i definitely need ATo/A8s here to 3 bomb.
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  #5  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:54 AM
Oink Oink is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

1 thing to note IMO

Yeah you are not folding a lot of better hands postflop when you 3-ball. But compared to just calling you might fold worse hands that would make you fold had you not 3-bet PF.

Say you just call and flop comes KT3fd with no bdfd for you. I would be folding here and giving up about 35-40% eq.

Now an argument can of course be made for me to not fold but I dunno about that.

In any case. 3-betting might not buy us a lot of implied FE but it will reduce our reverse implied FE as hero will now be the one to take down the pot on flops where he would have c/f'ed.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:27 AM
vmacosta vmacosta is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

[ QUOTE ]


Say you just call and flop comes KT3fd with no bdfd for you. I would be folding here and giving up about 35-40% eq.

Now an argument can of course be made for me to not fold but I dunno about that.


[/ QUOTE ]

so here's my main problem. Frankly, on that KTxr flop, I think folding A7o is bad. AllIn agrees, I think, but many good players fold there (see that thread for examples). I think giving up 35+% equity getting 5:1 is dumb. But I guess I'm just as uncomfortable in that spot as other ppl, which is why I tend to 3-bet stuff like A8o pf. I know it sounds silly to make a -ev play in order to avoid a different -ev play. But I just don't get why ppl are so quick to dump all that equity getting 5:1.

sorry for the ramble, plz keep up with good responses--I am def in need of improvement here.
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:33 AM
Oink Oink is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

[ QUOTE ]
sorry for the ramble, plz keep up with good responses--I am def in need of improvement here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So am I

The thing is with calling that flop is that people 2nd barrel me here. So I am calling to either improve on turn and c/f UI or to call turn UI and make a decision on river.

In either case I am getting owned. But I can certainly see how folding with 35% eq is terrible
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:30 AM
yourface yourface is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

vs people who play well I think c/f is best.

yes we pass up some equity, but vs guys who will be bluffing, semibluffing, value checking, and taking free cards with the right frequencies we are going to be playing a guessing game postflop. this means lots of FTOP mistakes, and therefore very high RIO

of course vs players who play predictably life gets a lot easier
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:38 AM
Oink Oink is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

If we c/f those flops then we need to consider that when debating preflop.

If Allin is c/f'ing those flops his analysis is incomplete IMHO. We should not only care about which cards we get villain to fold but on which boards its now villain that folds as opposed to Hero
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:59 PM
Tryptamean Tryptamean is offline
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Default Re: AllIn preflop post

Playing Ax unimproved postflop has been bugging me for the same reasons. I used to 3bet Ax out of the BB back in my tagfish 3+ AF days, when I was more accustomed to having initiative and more comfortable. I've started calling with it for basically the same reasons Allin talks about in his post (altho I couldnt have explained it so well).

I think this all comes down to Ax UI being a tough hand to play after the flop regardless of whether you have initiative.

About giving up your 35% equity on a KTx 2flush flop, I don't think it "bad" to give it up. You are in a RIO situation = you need more equity to peel, therefore you fold. The whole point of not 3betting pf is that you have the luxury of giving up that equity because the pot is small. I'd much rather do that instead of face a flop raise in a bigger pot, or face a tough turn decision when villian calls my flop c-bet.
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