What are you more likely to do? *Poll*

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a noob question regarding pf. What are people 3 betting with in the sb against this utg raiser? 77+ ats+ ajo+ kqs+?


[/ QUOTE ]

For me with an unknown BB:

55, A8s, ATo, KJs, KQo

Tighten up with a loose BB of course

[Oink]

I am certainly not trying to rub anyones anus the wrong way here.

But where I come from I see the WA/WB line like once every 20k hands. Villain just doesnt have Tx here. I dont care how unrealistic it is for him to c/r/c 77, 88, 99, JJ, AK, AQ it is more unrealistic for him to have Tx.


This spot is different simply because villain is an unknown as presented to me, and making the decision solely based on his stats I worry a helluva lot more about the rivered trips given his weakish TAG looking stats

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes but I doubt he would cap even AT given stats. The crux of my argument was I can't see this guy not sticking in a raise on flop or turn given two flush draws on the turn and top pair with no face cards out. Plus Joe is a statistical LAG if the guy has any stats.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my problem with the argument of everybody in the 3b camp:

If you think he always raises top pair on flop or turn, why do you think he would play 99 so differently? If JJ and Jts are virtually the same hand (and I disagree, but whatever), then how is 99 any different? And 77 picked up a gutshot on the turn, so I'd expect him to raise that hand there pretty damn often. So I honestly don't really get it--I'd 3b QQ sometimes too, but that would be against a 50/40 type who might raise/call KQ. Against a normal tag I don't see how this isn't just a cross-your-fingers call. I think you win a fair amount here only cuz I think he has a retarded blluff-raise a fair amount here.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent:
3253 hands
29.17/18.8/1.54
F: 2.0
T: 1.3
R: 0.98
WTSD: 43.5%
W$SD: 55.25%


5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 5 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#FF0000">UTG raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.00 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">UTG raises</font>

Your call button is now broken.

[/ QUOTE ]


this thread is retarded.

"lets make a poll where the only correct answer is an answer you cannot choose"

since call in not an option, I vote 3bet/fold to a cap.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I am certainly not trying to rub anyones anus the wrong way here.

But where I come from I see the WA/WB line like once every 20k hands. Villain just doesnt have Tx here. I dont care how unrealistic it is for him to c/r/c 77, 88, 99, JJ, AK, AQ it is more unrealistic for him to have Tx.


This spot is different simply because villain is an unknown as presented to me, and making the decision solely based on his stats I worry a helluva lot more about the rivered trips given his weakish TAG looking stats

[/ QUOTE ]


oink.

I'm a 26/18/2.0 I will have Tx here about always.

To think someone can't have Tx is just plain wrong.

What's this guy's most likely hand? Tx or air.

He is folding air and capping Tx.

[Oink]

Hip

I know

But I wasnt talking about playing with you but the regs in my games.

For some reason its the people with AF &lt; 1 that thinks its reasonable for villain to have Tx here [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Hence why the single AF/WTSD stats are the most important factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those stats are generally difficult to interpret and converge slowly. Look at this guy's w$sd--looks like he's running hot in JoeTall's sample and that's prob why his wsd is so high too.

I'd much rather just recall a single hand where he raised thin on the river or have a general feeling he wants my chips more than other people's (which may very well be the case, i dunno).

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but I doubt he would cap even AT given stats. The crux of my argument was I can't see this guy not sticking in a raise on flop or turn given two flush draws on the turn and top pair with no face cards out. Plus Joe is a statistical LAG if the guy has any stats.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my problem with the argument of everybody in the 3b camp:

If you think he always raises top pair on flop or turn, why do you think he would play 99 so differently? If JJ and Jts are virtually the same hand (and I disagree, but whatever), then how is 99 any different? And 77 picked up a gutshot on the turn, so I'd expect him to raise that hand there pretty damn often. So I honestly don't really get it--I'd 3b QQ sometimes too, but that would be against a 50/40 type who might raise/call KQ. Against a normal tag I don't see how this isn't just a cross-your-fingers call. I think you win a fair amount here only cuz I think he has a retarded blluff-raise a fair amount here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well sure, that's true, I'd raise for value with 22 on this flop if I was in there somehow preflop but I doubt the villain in question would. So I guess the question is how does someone with stats like those perceive the value of his hand changing between the turn and river. It is my contention if he has a smaller pair than a ten (A6, 77, whatever) he is going to see the ten as a good card, and what was previously a tenuous situation for him ("I could beat by a ten or an overpair here") has now become somewhat better ("now a ten is not very likely") so he perceives his hand value has increased. Nobody here can say they generally are not happy to see the top card pair when they were worried about their opponent having top pair. It's certainly a welcome sight most times.

-DeathDonkey

[Raist0000]

I agree with Miles and his posts, and I think too that 3betting is very bad.

It's even worse if we look at his river AF &lt; 1. I mean, I highly doubt that this opponent can make thin river value raises, and even if it's a thin value raise this time, he has to call your 3bet yet to have any value.

This is a ten a high percentage of the time.

[MitchL]

Nothing about villains line makes any sense which means I will never fold, but I would rather miss 1bb of value when I am ahead than lose 2bb extra when I am behind.