NL25 - SPR in action?

DonkeyChip · #1 08-14-2007, 07:52 AM

I just finished reading Professional No-Limit Hold Em and I'm trying to slowly work it into my game. I thought this hand was borderline...whaddya think?

NL25 on FT. The player to my left (villain) has been extremely laggy and recently got all-in vs. a smaller stack with 32o on a Q64r flop...he of course caught runner-runner 3s to win it. He has bet every flop when checked to him. The rest of the table has been somewhat aggressive.

I have $14.75 (villain covers) in MP3 and open-raise to .75 with ATs, villain calls, SB calls, BB calls. Pot ~$3.
FLOP: A-8-4 rainbow
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ???

I checked, villain bets $1.50, SB and BB fold, Hero ???

I raised to $4.25, villain calls.

TURN: 2
Hero ??? Pot is ~$11 and I have $9.75 left.

At this point I'm committed (I had decided to go all the way with it once villain bet and the blinds folded)...does it really matter how the rest goes in? Anybody lead the turn for anything less than all-in? FWIW, we did get it all-in on the turn and the river was a Q. Results later.

mack848 · #2 08-14-2007, 08:20 AM

Once you are committed, your only concern is how to get him to get it in with you.

It is unlikely that he has many outs with any hand you are ahead of, so it would be OK, for example, to make a weak lead (or check) and hope he senses weakness and pushes over you - if you think he wouldn't call a turn push with a worse hand. The best way to proceed would be very read related and you are better placed to decide than we are.

Jeff76 · #3 08-14-2007, 08:24 AM

I think once you decide to commit, you just push the turn. You've already announced a big hand and the chips are going in, so just get them in there. My concern is with the flop play.

You have an SPR of 4.5- against a loose player that is fine for a top pair kind of hand; however, your top pair isn't that great (because of the kicker) and either he'll need a 2nd best hand to pay you off OR he'll need to try and bluff you off yours. When you c/r, though, you announce you have an ace, so now you really need him to make a 2nd best hand. I assigned him this range, which seems reasonable (perhaps there are some low pocket pairs in there as well, but it seems pretty doubtful even a maniac would want to get it all in here with a PP on an A high flop against a c/r):

Ax, 88, 44, 56, 67.

Assuming he doesn't fold any of these hands, against this range you are only 57%. If he will fold his gutshots to your aggression, then you are breakeven. This just makes your play highly variant, but not really that profitable.

However, if he will bluff a lot at pots, this adds a lot of other hands to his range, so getting it in against that range is clearly profitable. I would take a line of calling his bet, and letting him bluff into you the whole way.

I think this is more of a hand range, equity, maximize problem than an SPR one, fwiw.

threads13 · #4 08-14-2007, 08:38 AM

I agree with Jeff. I also would like to note that your target SPR against this guy with this hand HU may be something in the neighborhood of 5 with this hand. However, you do have to adjust it down a bit since this is a multiway pot. However, I think you are fine with it at 4.5 if you are check calling him as he will tend to do what he does best... bet worse hands.

DonkeyChip · #5 08-14-2007, 08:48 AM

Thanks.

Jeff, I guess I thought hand range-equity-maximize is what we do everytime, every hand anyways...I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'. It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold. Against the blinds I would have been more cautious but vs. the aggrotard I felt I had to go with it. Maybe I was 'reaching' for a spot to tangle with this guy...with him being so aggro and to my left he had pushed me off some other hands that may have been good. He was pushing everybody off hands...basically trying to win almost every pot.

Mike Kelley · #6 08-14-2007, 09:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks.

Jeff, I guess I thought hand range-equity-maximize is what we do everytime, every hand anyways...I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'. It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold. Against the blinds I would have been more cautious but vs. the aggrotard I felt I had to go with it. Maybe I was 'reaching' for a spot to tangle with this guy... with him being so aggro and to my left he had pushed me off some other hands that may have been good. He was pushing everybody off hands...basically trying to win almost every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leave the table and get position on him. He won't notice. Money flows clockwise around a table.

threads13 · #7 08-14-2007, 09:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks.

Jeff, I guess I thought hand range-equity-maximize is what we do everytime, every hand anyways...I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'. It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold. Against the blinds I would have been more cautious but vs. the aggrotard I felt I had to go with it. Maybe I was 'reaching' for a spot to tangle with this guy...with him being so aggro and to my left he had pushed me off some other hands that may have been good. He was pushing everybody off hands...basically trying to win almost every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

SPR is a tool for helping you plan your hands. Of course, planning a hand will tend to make you maximize it but it doesn't mean that just because you meet your SPR and you are committed that you should be the one doing the betting.

For example, in your hand you have reached your target SPR. If you use REM you will see that you have good equity against his range and the best way to maximize is to check/call him pretty much the whole way since this way he will bet worse hands that he may normally fold if you were the one doing the betting. This is because of your read on this particular opponent.

Also, you are right that once you call the flop you should be committed to the hand but this doesn't mean that you have to raise.

Jeff76 · #8 08-14-2007, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'.

[/ QUOTE ]SPR helps us manage our risk vs reward. We are willing to put in 4.5x the pot on this flop because we believe villain will put this much in with a weaker range than our hand (though some of this range likely includes bluffing hands).

If the SPR were 10, there is now twice as much at risk for what we are fighting over, and now villain will tend to have better hands when all the chips get in the middle (because the risk/reward ratio has changed for him as well). Since now we will probably be behind villain's range when all the chips get in, we do not want to commit.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree that against this villain you should be willing to commit to going all the way (and SPR tells us that); however, I think our commitment should be conditional to villain betting into us, as that means we gain equity from picking off his bluffs. Villain has a predictable tendency, and that is the only reason we should be willing to commit here. If we didn't know villain had this tendency, our hand is way too marginal to commit with.

DonkeyChip · #9 08-14-2007, 11:27 AM

So if I let him do all the betting...do we get all-in? And if we do get all-in...is most of it going in on the river...after I've put a bunch of chips in and several scary cards have come out? I guess the 'let him have the lead throughout the hand' line didn't occur to be that great because I'm oop.

For instance, if I just check/call the flop the pot is just under $6 and I'll have $12.50 left. Then when I check the turn he could see the river for free...just seems like I'm letting him off too easy. Once I decided to go with it I kinda just wanted the money in ASAP.

Thanks for the responses. FWIW, I'm not trying to be defensive or anything like that (not sure how my tone is coming across)...just that I think it's important that I understand some of the finer details of what is being suggested.

Jeff76 · #10 08-14-2007, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Then when I check the turn he could see the river for free...just seems like I'm letting him off too easy.

[/ QUOTE ]If he checks behind on the turn, you can value bet the river. Free cards are not going to be too big a deal on this dry flop. And yeah, you don't get his entire stack there, but you are still getting value. Just because you are committed doesn't mean that he is.

FWIW, I probably call the flop and then crai the turn, just because at that point all the chips are committed and he'll stack off there with a baby ace. My main concern is on the flop, where a c/r by you will get rid of most of his bluffing hands, which are the hands that make AT profitable against him in the first place.