Common situation: AK UI, how to mix it up?

[Hielko]

To make to question not to wide, image the following problem:

A good TAG opens from EP, and you 3-bet from MP. His range is typical, something like 77+, ATo+, ATs+, KQo, KQs. Your range is something like AKo, AQs+ and TT+. He knows your 3-beting range and you know his openraise range. Let’s say that he calls you raise and this means that he probably doesn’t hold AA/KK/QQ/AKs.

To make life easy, let's say that there comes a dry non scary flop like 226r. How do you continue in such a way that he can't exploit you/play perfect against you?

After the flop you have AKo (12), AQs (4), TT+ (5 x 6). So you have a pair 65% of the time and A-high the other 35% of the time. If you would bet all hands on all streets and he would continue only with a pocket pair or sometimes AKo postflop and fold those PP’s as soon as an A or K turns or rivers he is probably playing perfect against your strategy of always betting. So how do you need to play this postflop?

Betting 100% on all streets is probably not optimal.
Betting only the PP on all streets and checking A-high on the turn (and folding on the river) is probably not optimal.

So what is the best strategy to use that wins more when ahead and loses less when behind and that the lines are such that you can’t be easily read? I hope someone can explain this a bit to me or show me how you can estimate the correct percentages for certain actions postflop.

[Hielko]

Question to vague/hard?

[Harv72b]

You pretty much answered your own question in the Subject line: mix it up.

I don't have a straightforward percentage of times when I do this or that, it's really just a spur of the moment thing. In this exact scenario, I am betting the flop 100% of the time, though--I'd be perfectly content if he just check/folded with a dominated hand, and as you mentioned, I don't want to fall into a pattern of checking ace high hands & betting pairs. Oh, and incidentally my own 3betting range is quite a bit larger than what you mentioned, especially against a TAG (that makes for even more fun in cases like this), so some percentage of the time I'm either getting called by a dominated hand (when I have AK) or getting a hand which has me dominated to fold (when I have something like KQs, for example).

So assuming he doesn't check/raise the flop (I'll sometimes 3bet, sometimes call & fold the turn UI, sometimes call & raise the turn UI), the question becomes the turn. Sometimes bet, sometimes check. When I check, sometimes call the river bet, sometimes fold. Vague enough? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

The fact that this opponent is a "good TAG" and knows our game somewhat makes me want to call that river bet a little more often, because I know he's capable of mixing up his own game and might peel the flop with weaker overcards (and try to steal the pot by representing a pocket pair on the end). This also makes me slightly more inclined to check through the turn UI.

[noob_sauce]

couple questions for your harv if you have time...

for me i tend to bet the flop 100% of the time
and then if flat called 50/50 between betting the turn, checking river UI and checking turn calling a river bet UI..
both of these instances assume a passive opponent who lets you get to showdown without a fight... and we obviously aren't against a passive opponent...

how do you tend to play the following scenarios?

A.) flop 662r
villain checks, hero bets, villain raises, you call
turn another blank falls off
villain leads, youre getting 6 to 1, <font color="red">hero? </font>
if you call another non improving card falls off on river
villain leads, <font color="red"> hero?</font>

B.) flop 622r
villain checks, hero bets, villain calls
turn say another blank (3-9 r) falls
villain checks, hero bets, villain raises <font color="red"> getting 7 to 1 hero? </font> if we call here are we committing to showdown?
river another similar blank falls...
villain bets <font color="red"> hero? </font>

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
If you would bet all hands on all streets and he would continue only with a pocket pair or sometimes AKo postflop and fold those PP’s as soon as an A or K turns or rivers he is probably playing perfect against your strategy of always betting.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your TAG is this straightforward, then you have a pretty easy time against him. You should always bet the flop and, since he'll only continue with hands that beat/tie your Ax, you should always check the turn UI, and you should almost always fold the river UI if bet at, since you can only hope to occasionaly chop with his AK.

In short, and I think this echos W.D.'s comments, if your opponent is completely predictable then it's pretty easy to play perfect against him. I think your question probably assumes that he doesn't play completely predictable - that when he calls your flop bet it doesn't always mean that he has AK or better. Once your opponent starts mixing it up a bit then you have to start mixing it up a bit too (and that's when poker gets more interesting).

[Gap23Razor]

[ QUOTE ]
To make to question not to wide, image the following problem:

A good TAG opens from EP, and you 3-bet from MP. His range is typical, something like 77+, ATo+, ATs+, KQo, KQs. Your range is something like AKo, AQs+ and TT+. He knows your 3-beting range and you know his openraise range. Let’s say that he calls you raise and this means that he probably doesn’t hold AA/KK/QQ/AKs.

To make life easy, let's say that there comes a dry non scary flop like 226r. How do you continue in such a way that he can't exploit you/play perfect against you?

After the flop you have AKo (12), AQs (4), TT+ (5 x 6). So you have a pair 65% of the time and A-high the other 35% of the time. If you would bet all hands on all streets and he would continue only with a pocket pair or sometimes AKo postflop and fold those PP’s as soon as an A or K turns or rivers he is probably playing perfect against your strategy of always betting. So how do you need to play this postflop?

Betting 100% on all streets is probably not optimal.
Betting only the PP on all streets and checking A-high on the turn (and folding on the river) is probably not optimal.

So what is the best strategy to use that wins more when ahead and loses less when behind and that the lines are such that you can’t be easily read? I hope someone can explain this a bit to me or show me how you can estimate the correct percentages for certain actions postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know, i am glad to see you ask this question--its one i've pondered: two good players playing out a hand, and each is well aware of possible deception---the question, what is the right amount of folding/calling/bluffing?

i think this is a situation for game theroy and is touched on in Theroy of Poker by Slansky...the pot odds tell you the percentage you should choose each option, and to get your play to be random you need a randomizer...i believe Andy Beal in his matches versus the syndicate used a pocket watch with only a sweep second hand (see the Prof, Banker * SKing); in Theroy of Poker, using a selected board cards to get a random fraction is discussed; personally, i use a combination of suits in my hand or on the flop to decide randomly to call down/fold

[HoneyBadger]

Play all of them as if they're AA, and back off when he pushes back too much. With position, bet whenever he checks. Raise the flop when he bets. Bet the turn. If he check raises the flop I often 3 bet. But it depends, and it must be mixed.

This question is much more interesting out of position.

[Hielko]

[ QUOTE ]
This question is much more interesting out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wanted to start with the easy case.

I think my most players (including me) mix up different lines, but I just do what 'feels' like the right option and I don't know how exploitable I'am. Perhaps I'm c-betting to much, folding to turn C/R's to much or perhaps I'm calling the river with A-high to much. I don't really know. I know I have to mix it up, but there must be some strategy that is better then an other stategy.

For example bet the turn with AKo 90%, 70%, 50%, 20% ???
Try to represent a big PP by 3-betting a flop C/R 10% of the time, 20%, 50%, 80%?

[ QUOTE ]
If your TAG is this straightforward, then you have a pretty easy time against him.

[/ QUOTE ]
He isn't straightforward, he will be thinking about what I think that he has and he will be thinking about what I think he thinks I have (hope you are still following this...). So my lines need to be mixed up in such a way that he can't exploit certain things.

[Hielko]

Just a random observation: it's funny that usually when hands are posted here the conclustion is: "this is the right line!" and almost never: you should raise here 30% and fold 70% (just some random numbers). But I think it is obvious that always taking the same line in the same spot is wrong (against a good opponent).

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
A.) flop 662r
villain checks, hero bets, villain raises, you call
turn another blank falls off
villain leads, youre getting 6 to 1, hero?
if you call another non improving card falls off on river
villain leads, hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a passive opponent as you laid out, it's a pretty easy turn fold. He's never making a move with a weaker/equal hand, and getting 6:1 we don't have the pot odds to chase a 6-outer.

[ QUOTE ]
B.) flop 622r
villain checks, hero bets, villain calls
turn say another blank (3-9 r) falls
villain checks, hero bets, villain raises getting 7 to 1 hero? if we call here are we committing to showdown?
river another similar blank falls...
villain bets hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, if you specified a passive opponent then he's really never going to be making a move against us with a weaker hand. The turn call after he check/raises is pretty much neutral when you factor in table image considerations, but AK high is not going to be good against that opponent often enough to call again on the river.

Now, when you make the opponent aggressive, or better yet a thinking aggressive opponent, that's when things get fun. You can start doing things like 3betting the flop in hand A (you can also do that from time to time against a passive opponent, knowing that he's almost always going to give you a free card on the turn) or even calling the flop c/r &amp; popping the turn. In hand B you can think about a turn semibluff 3bet or even calling the turn c/r planning to raise any river (I would use both of these lines very sparingly), as well as just plain calling down.

I'm also more apt to call down unimproved if there's an obvious draw on the board, even if the turn created the draw.

Incidentally, the points you laid out are why I'll often employ a check/call, bet line when I'm in villain's spot here: this keeps the pot relatively small and makes it easy for him to fold a hand like AK on the turn. And this, of course, is regardless of whether I have a better hand than AK. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]