When to 3-bet and when to just call???

[mvdgaag]

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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So what are you looking for? If you're not playing for a set you need to play it on agression. 99 is only overpair to 1 in 6 flops and therefore almost as playable as 22 here. Call for set value and sometimes raise to win on agression. Calling and continuing without a set will be worse on almost any flop being OOP than when you had raised.

[Acevader]

LOL at the guy that suggested calling nearly all of them and re-raising none/very few. Dream come true stuff if you are at my table.

For me it's:

1. KQs in BB, 32/24 raises from button

3-bet to hell.
2. JTs in SB, 18/12 raises from CO.....

Easy fold unless the BTN calls and BB will defo call, then I'll call for a multi-way flop.

3. 78s in BB, 24/17 raises from button.....

Fold, 3-bet or call - depends on my 'recent past' at that table and thus my image. I'd probably call or fold more often but sometime I'll semi-bluff raise this and c-bet any flop.

4. KJos on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....

Never call, usually fold, sometimes 3-bet. I'm ahead of his range and have position but I'm not overly enthusiastic about my hand and have nothing invested in the pot. Just not a hand that needs to be played really. If villain had a really bad habit of calling 3-bets with Jx, Kx all pairs, etc then I'd 3-bet but if he calls a king/jack high flop can't be played very fast.

5. 88 on button, 32/24 raises from CO.....

3-bet or call - mainly to mix it up. I sometimes I like to just 'mine' with these hand and sometimes I like to take over with them. It'll depend on other factors at the table and villains post flop traits.

6. AQs on CO, 18/12 raises from UTG.....

Insta-muck. No way am I even going to risk taking a flop aginst a 18/12 coming out from UTG with AQ even when I have position. That is unless I had some other influencing factor to make it correct to call or raise? Perhaps he's terrible post flop or a TOTAL nit vs 3-bets?

7. 99 on BB, 24/17 raises from button....

Same as 88 hand and same reasons/logic

8. 45s on button, 24/17 raises from the CO....

Fold (usually) or 3-bet (sometimes), never call.

[Notfunny1]

To those who say not to 3-bet any of these hands. That is crazy. What do your observant opponents think (know) you have when you do actually 3-bet? In at least 3 of these (1,5,7) you are way ahead of villain's opening range.
1. rr
2. f
3. f or rr , read dependant
4. f or call sometimes, mostly fold.
5. rr
6. f or call if opp. is straightforward post flop
7. rr, lead all flops
8. f or rr

you have to learn to give yourself opportunities to win the pot when you don't hit. calling is weak, and lets your opp. retain the lead in the hand.

[Acevader]

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you have to learn to give yourself opportunities to win the pot when you don't hit. calling is weak, and lets your opp. retain the lead in the hand.

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Spot on - I love people that only 3-bet AA-QQ + AK but yet call raises willy nilly with all manner of broadway hands.

[drzen]

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When a 32/24 raises from the CO or OTB he's raising low suited gappers, junk aces, suited kings, any pair. A hand like 99 is so ahead of that range its crazy.

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Go back and read the question again. The 99 hand does not raise that light. 88 is the closest decision in my view, but I'd rather call and see the flop with it.


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My bad, but 99 is still way ahead of 24/17 range aswell.

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You are simply wrong. It is 53/47. Not much overlay for playing OOP.

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Seeing a flop oop without initiative and no idea of your opponents hand just means you will have to fold a lot of flops.

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Seeing a flop with the "initiative" OOP means I have to pay more to fold the same flops.

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There is nothing you can do when the overcards hit and he scoops the pot with 56s.

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65s is not in his range.

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Also don't think you have the implied odds to hit your set, a range a wide as that is just going to c-bet then fold 2/3rds of the time. If your thinking of taking it away post flop thats fine, but that can be expensive to do OOP.

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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Agreed, but if you want to play poker here, you need more information about their hand and the ability to control the pot, tough to do oop.

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I will be controlling the pot simply by betting out. I'll also receive information pretty quickly. Either way, I'm likely to be betting most flops.

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Get the money in when your ahead, increase your FE, profit.

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Get your money in OOP, get called, feel obliged to bet out because you have the betting lead, bye bye profit.

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By betting out on the flop you have created a situation with a greater EV than if you just called.

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The bet on the flop cannot really have more EV because you threebet, so long as you are leading most flops anyway.

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Many TAGgy villians overestimate their implied odd in these spots and will call any pair and most SCs, only to fold to your c-bet. (and even if they do hit, you can still get away EV intact)

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In most cases, they will be correct to call. Their range vs yours, given the advice you give here, will stand up pretty well. They're not likely to be miles behind. Dude, if I see you even once threejack it with 99 in the big blind against a 17% range, I will call your raise *every time*. I'll be licking my lips when cards in the playing zone flop.

[drzen]

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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So what are you looking for?

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Rags, basically.

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If you're not playing for a set you need to play it on agression. 99 is only overpair to 1 in 6 flops and therefore almost as playable as 22 here.

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One overcard, no obvious draws, I bet out. Villain folds. Profit.

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Call for set value and sometimes raise to win on agression. Calling and continuing without a set will be worse on almost any flop being OOP than when you had raised.

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No, I don't agree. I pay less to take the same risk.

[drzen]

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you have to learn to give yourself opportunities to win the pot when you don't hit. calling is weak, and lets your opp. retain the lead in the hand.

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Spot on - I love people that only 3-bet AA-QQ + AK but yet call raises willy nilly with all manner of broadway hands.

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I love people who threebet light in the BB. Bloating the pot OOP is one of the worst things you can do in NL in my opinion. YMMV, of course, but I don't see why you want to make a big pot when you are only marginally ahead at best.

[mattak]

OP specifically mentions that this is 6max. The biggest difference between preflop play in full ring and 6max is that your 3 betting range HAS to be wider in 6max. You make your money over the long run when loose passive players fold their limps/loose raises to your 3 bets. You will play in some bigger pots and have to make some difficult decisions. However, these decisions are made easier by only opening up your 3 bet range when in position. I highly recommend NOT bloating the pot OOP from the blinds unless you have a very solid read or a very good hand. I also recommend folding any hand (to a late position raiser) when you are in the blinds that you would not open raise with from UTG.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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So what are you looking for? If you're not playing for a set you need to play it on agression. 99 is only overpair to 1 in 6 flops and therefore almost as playable as 22 here. Call for set value and sometimes raise to win on agression. Calling and continuing without a set will be worse on almost any flop being OOP than when you had raised.

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I am beginning to think calling for set value HU is overrated. You are assuming a single foe is going to put alot of chips in if you hit, which might not be the case, and most of the time you miss.

I think with these mid pairs 77-1010 you need to get aggresive against the right opponent. i see it as 50/50, and the reraise helps your metagame.

[FooSH]

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When a 32/24 raises from the CO or OTB he's raising low suited gappers, junk aces, suited kings, any pair. A hand like 99 is so ahead of that range its crazy.

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Go back and read the question again. The 99 hand does not raise that light. 88 is the closest decision in my view, but I'd rather call and see the flop with it.


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My bad, but 99 is still way ahead of 24/17 range aswell.

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You are simply wrong. It is 53/47. Not much overlay for playing OOP.

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He is not raising 17% of his hands from this position, it more in the range of 20%-30% depending on how position sensitive he is.


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Seeing a flop oop without initiative and no idea of your opponents hand just means you will have to fold a lot of flops.

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Seeing a flop with the "initiative" OOP means I have to pay more to fold the same flops.

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There is nothing you can do when the overcards hit and he scoops the pot with 56s.

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65s is not in his range.

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I dont know what site/limits you play at but at 6-max MSNL on most sites 56s is very much in their range. I run at around 24/16 and I raise 56s if its been folded round to me in OTB or in the CO pretty much every time. Most solid TAGs i play against do too.

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Also don't think you have the implied odds to hit your set, a range a wide as that is just going to c-bet then fold 2/3rds of the time. If your thinking of taking it away post flop thats fine, but that can be expensive to do OOP.

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With 99 in the BB, I prefer to call and see what the flop brings. I'm not really looking to hit a set.


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Agreed, but if you want to play poker here, you need more information about their hand and the ability to control the pot, tough to do oop.

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I will be controlling the pot simply by betting out. I'll also receive information pretty quickly. Either way, I'm likely to be betting most flops.

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A decent TAG (as a lot of 24/17's are) will bluff raise you enought times for this to be unprofitable. By controlling the pot I meant controlling the size, sorry if I was unclear, checking behind some streets to get to showdown cheaper, this is impossible to do OOP.

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By betting out on the flop you have created a situation with a greater EV than if you just called.

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The bet on the flop cannot really have more EV because you threebet, so long as you are leading most flops anyway.

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It will have more EV because the pot is larger and you have a much greater chance of taking it down, you will also get bluff raised far less.

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Many TAGgy villians overestimate their implied odd in these spots and will call any pair and most SCs, only to fold to your c-bet. (and even if they do hit, you can still get away EV intact)

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In most cases, they will be correct to call. Their range vs yours, given the advice you give here, will stand up pretty well. They're not likely to be miles behind. Dude, if I see you even once threejack it with 99 in the big blind against a 17% range, I will call your raise *every time*. I'll be licking my lips when cards in the playing zone flop.

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You are welcome to do so, just remember that 99 is near the bottom of my 3 betting range (apart from complete resteals). You will find it very hard to profitably play against this range, esecially if you are calling with =/>17% of your hands.