Ram Vaswani speaks about that 'Golf Game'.

[Phntm]

This is sooooo retarded, I am starting to think that you idiots who do not see that Ram is a low life welcher haven't taken time to read the insight brought to you by many Golf Gamblers due to the fact that their posts are so long. The points that you people make are not valid at all, Ram lost in the negotiation phase, and choked on the greens, went on monkey tilt and ran up a number he couldn't pay. Excuses be damned, do you think Tony Spilatro gave a damn about excuses? Eff you pay me... Ram I got your head in a vice.......You make a verbal bet and lose, you pay.. no ifs ands or buts. Welching on a bet, thinking the ocean will protect is is a straight up sucker move. Trying to ruin someone's credibilty over your own refusal to pay up on a debt, is akin to a drunken girlfriend cheating and then claiming rape. Like I have said before I wouldn't even come to the US without at least a deposit or a payment plan in mind.

[hencole]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway I think this whole thing is terrible for the image of poker

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I can't see how the general poker watching/crap-buying public is going to hear about it. ESPN aren't exactly going to have a jokey 3-minute slot about this. Although it would be cool if they did. "The last time these two faced off for high stakes, it escalated into a major cheating/welching feud ! And now here they are, heads up for the title !!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Well seeing as they are both sponsored by the same site I think it is pretty bad. Players on Fulltilt are going to be thinking 'Do I trust these guys?'. My view on poker players has gone way down since this thread started as it's clear a lot of people take the deceptions that are part of the game of poker and apply it to real life.

[captZEEbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I love it how people think it was cool for Ivey to hustle Ram by misrepresenting his handicap, but it's uncool for Ram to "hustle" Ivey by refusing to pay.

The two are equivalent in my book.

In poker the money is on the table: you win the pot, the chips get shipped your way. You don't have to depend on people keeping their word and paying up if they lose.

If these high stakes golfers were smart, they'd give the money to a trusted third party to hold while the match was going on (or at least a hefty deposit).

When someone gets hustled, there's an increased risk they're not going to pay. And since (it seems) that golf gambling is all about hustling, it seems foolish for the hustler to risk not getting paid.

So who was the big dope here, Ram or Phil? It turns out Ram was freerolling and Phil was the sucker.

[/ QUOTE ]there's a difference that I'm surprised you can't see.

First off, EVERYONE shortsells their handicap. Second, image a policy that welching on a bet is acceptable anytime someone "lies" about their handicap. That would mean, anytime you lose you don't have to pay b/c obviously the other person lied about their handicap if they shot above it. Therefore, nobody would gamble. That policy doesn't make sense. The only thing that makes sense as a policy is always honor your bets, don't make the bets if you are a bad gambler.

[ut2010]

Nothing worse than a welcher. Ram should be shunned. The fact that he decided he would freeroll and continue playing should damage his reputation even more.

[Daddy Warbucks]

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The real question is how did Phil Ivey get so good at poker without reading 2+2 books. I am shocked and amazed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Such an awesome awesome thread reference!

[NCAces]

[ QUOTE ]
I love it how people think it was cool for Ivey to hustle Ram by misrepresenting his handicap, but it's uncool for Ram to "hustle" Ivey by refusing to pay.

The two are equivalent in my book.

In poker the money is on the table: you win the pot, the chips get shipped your way. You don't have to depend on people keeping their word and paying up if they lose.

If these high stakes golfers were smart, they'd give the money to a trusted third party to hold while the match was going on (or at least a hefty deposit).

When someone gets hustled, there's an increased risk they're not going to pay. And since (it seems) that golf gambling is all about hustling, it seems foolish for the hustler to risk not getting paid.

So who was the big dope here, Ram or Phil? It turns out Ram was freerolling and Phil was the sucker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let is assume you are right. Who do you think will continue to get action in Vegas, and who do you think will not be welcome?

Also, please read the posts by Blair and other golf gamblers, not golfers. It is beyond comprehension that people on this forum can't see the difference between your weekly golf game and a match where you could possibly lose 1.4 million.

NCAces

[Rushmore]

Hey Barry. I hope that you're not so fed up with all of this nonsense to the point that you are just done with this thread, but I'll ask you anyway:

Is there ANY doubt whatsoever in your mind that, in the context of what is understood to be "these situations" (of which you are undoubtedly intimately acquainted), there is a right party and a wrong party, and that their identities are not ambiguous?

Based on your post here, it would appear that there is no question in your mind that Ram is angling to justify shameless welching. My question is whether we believe his to be rationalizing(doesn't realize he's wrong), or if he's really just trying to front that he truly believes he's right?

I'm sure there was a more verbally economical way to ask that question.

[MrMore]

Maybe the poker world needs a new term (like we don't have enough).

THE ENGLISH BET
Applied to wagers which will be collected on if won, but not paid out if lost.

Once I asked a guy, when facing a big bet, if he had the flush. He said yeah, he'd show me. So I folded my set, and he turned over a bluff. He lied, which I consider unethical, personally, even in the middle of a poker hand. BUT: he got the pot, and even if I'd had the option of not paying off, I would have paid off, AND it never occured to me to get mad at him, only myself.

Ivey may be a scumbag (I feel this way about liars in poker games, though I don't think they're cheating), but RV had notice very early on, and kept playing, AND it's silly to think that RV is stiffing PI for any reason other than the amount of the loss.

[bpc009]

[ QUOTE ]

2. Erick Lindgren gave Phil 10 shots during the summer. He now gives Phil 8 shots. They played even in a nine-hole TV match in Australia, and Erick clobbered Phil. When Mark and Ram asked Erick if they ever played even, he admitted they had, but he made sure that Ram knew that he was a much better golfer than Phil. That conveniently got left out of Ram's post.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the post Barry. I appreciate the clarification on so many points. I still don't know exactly what I feel about this situation, but I think that more than anything we need to know more about point 2 from your post.

I can accept the hustlers here saying that lying about your handicap is part of the negotiation etc, but I don't think lying about your handicap is the same as lying about the conditions another player gives you in a gambling situation. For me, lying about another wager crosses a line that lying about a handicap does not. This does not mean that I think Ram shouldn't have to pay, etc. It simply means that I think finding out the truth to this detail is important.

Did Phil in fact lie about his play with Lindgren? To what degree and when?

Was it after day 1 as Ram wrote in his Mob piece? If so, then why hasn't Ram paid up for the first day's losses, and only argue that he shouldn't have to pay for everything thereafter?

It is a detail that we need to know more about, and one that I think would be crucial if it comes to arbitration.

[miikka84]

how anyone can say RV is right not paying money, i know that everyone who gambles about golf knows that their their oppenents underestimate their skills to get favourable odds, only think that ivey did wrong was not demanding money from ram before increasing bets. This whole thing is so obvious, that is hard to realize why people even argue about it??? bet is about over million$, of course ram is trying to get away with it if he can, who wouldn't???

ps. sorry if englis is bad, my first post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]