Luxor Ruling

[Howard Burroughs]

Hi everyone,


I would love to have some feedback on an ugly situation at the Luxor (moments ago).


I'm hitting a lot of rooms on Monday night when a friend of mine calls and wants to hit the luxor for some poker. We're soon in the same game, his beautiful wife is sweating him; it's a fun table and all is right with the world.


Then this hand comes up..........


I'm heads-up against a player with what I think is the best hand on every street.


I raised pre-flop (this is a NL game, btw), bet the flop, and then on the turn.......
He checks and I move all-in.


When I move all in, I'm shoving my stack in evenly with both hands. Right before I cross the betting line, the dealer (C.P.) says, "He's all-in (and even mentions the dollar amount for the table, which was 100% accurate on the amount).


As I'm crossing the betting line (a split second after C.P.'s announced my all-in), my right hand beats my left hand over the line by a fraction of a second (but still in one obvious motion).
My lone opponent immediately yells, "string bet".

I say, "What?"


We go back and forth and the floor is called.


The floor, listens to C.P. The Dealer's account of what happened.


C.P. says he never announced anything and that I put my right hand out with chips and then thought for a moment and then put more chips out with my left hand.


Well, I've seen fire and I've seen rain, but I have NEVER seen or heard anything as bizarre as this.


Okay, based on the dealer's total disparage from the truth, I'll probably lose the ruling but I want to at least state the facts as I know them to the floorman.


I say to the floor man, calmly and cooly at this point, "Can I say what happened from my viewpoint."

He says, "No".


I say, "You are not going to listen to my version of what happened?"


He then says, "You can tell me anything you want but I've already made up my mine and I'm ruling against you".


I now lost my cool (and decided to leave the room within seconds). I don't think I'll be back.




So my questions to you my poker playing friends...........


1) Based on the dealer announcing my all-in and him also saying the dollar amount of my all-in, does it then matter if my right hand went over the betting line a fraction of a second before my left hand?


2) Even IF the Luxor Floorman decided, before he heard what really happened, that he would rule against me......


Is it good business to tell a patron of your room that, "You can tell me anything you want but I've already made up my mine and I'm ruling against you"?


Should he at least hear what you have to say?


3) Am I just a big baby?



**********************************



I usually just announce "all-in". But, before I could do it, the dealer announced it for me. Probably won't ever happen again, but, the way the floorman handled it was a new low in poker management in my humble opinion.


Thanks in advance for any feedback either agreeing or disagreeing with me. I'll take tough love from you and Lord knows I can be wrong.



Thanks for any feedback.


Thanks and Happy Holidays!

Best Wishes

Howard

[RR]

I agree with you completely.

edit to add: This is also why traditionally the NL rule has been that you can continue to bet until your hands come to rest outside the betting area. I think I am fighting a losing battle as it appears that all the places that are new to spreading NL are using the limit rule, but the traditional NL rule is far superior as it avoids situations like this.

[sternroolz]

Sick.

I don't play at Luxor anyway, but after hearing this, there is zero chance I will play there in the future.

[AngusThermopyle]

Floor was a jerk not to listen to your side and get info from the rest of the table. Only listening to the dealer is a bad practice, both from a customer service perspective and from "above all, get the ruling right" perspective.

Dealer was a jerk. First he says you are all-in, and then he changes the story when the floor shows up?

But ....
You had never said "all in", etc. You were shoving your stacks with both hands and had not crossed the betting line. Dealer said "Player is all in for $XXX". Do you think that you were required at that point to put all your chips in? Verbal declarations are binding, but they have to be yours, not the dealer's.

The "bright side", you were able to bet half your stack. You were allowed to bet your "right hand" chips, right? Did the opponent (local/regular?) call?

(Anybody want to compare Luxor's responsibility/liability in this case vs the Caesar's/renege thread currently going?)

[LovinItAll]

[ QUOTE ]
This is also why traditionally the NL rule has been that you can continue to bet until your hands come to rest outside the betting area.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to agree with this position (hands at rest mean the betting is over), but too many people were angling, at least where I play. The room changed the rule to one motion or an announcement due to situations like this:

Villian grabs two fists of chips, moves the first over the line as he tries to gauge the reaction of opponent(s). >90% of the time there is no reaction, but the other times a player is reaching to call (maybe an angle itself) and villian decides to simply dump one fist instead of two.

How hard is is it to verbally announce one's intentions? I always try to so there is no misunderstanding. Almost everytime I play a dealer has to stop someone from placing a string bet.......

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I am fighting a losing battle as it appears that all the places that are new to spreading NL are using the limit rule,

[/ QUOTE ]

For how many years have I been telling you that?

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
(Anybody want to compare Luxor's responsibility/liability in this case vs the Caesar's/renege thread currently going?)

[/ QUOTE ]

The casino manager should have calculated how much money this ruling cost Howard.

Then security should've grabbed the floorman, emptied his pockets, and made restitution on the spot.

If that's not possible, then the Luxor should've cut a check right there and then, as well as a mittful of comps.

[Howard Burroughs]

Dealer had complained about a dollar tip I gave him a few hands before this (said something like, "That WHOLE dollar is for me?"). In retrospect, that may have had something to do with his actions in this hand. Maybe, maybe not. I'm starting to wonder but who knows.


******************


I did something very, very, VERY stupid after the floor ruled the way he did. I turned to the guy who called my hand a string bet and said, you want a cheap draw that bad, here, take all my chips and shoved him all the chips (before he even called) and I walked out of the room, Bobby Knight-like mad.
I don't normally have a problem with anger management but.....


A Trifecta of a guy calling a string bet, a dealer flat out telling untruths and a floorman from hell put me on mega tilt.

I don't think I ever tilted like that (the tilt was after his ruling btw, I was calm before) but I should have stayed calm and played the hand out at least.


Oh well. Live and learn. I'm an idiot.


Best Wishes

Howard

[andyfox]

IIRC, they have some other strange rules there, and they have that wood piece around the edge of the table that's strange too.

[Slim Pickens]

It sounds like you got screwed by a bitter dealer, who think 2% of a max buy-in per pot is just too little to tip, especially at a place where after a typical session you'll have lost one entire buy-in to the rake by the time you're done. I don't blame the floor here. Most players in the Luxor game are beyond clueless and it's not worth his time to stand there and argue with someone who isn't likely to have the first clue about the rules aside from what he's remembered seeing on TV.

I don't know if you still care but if you do it would be worth a complaint to a higher-level manager about the dealer lying to the floor.

EDIT: To answer your questions...

1) Once the bet is announced, you can put your chips in one at a time if you want. At least that's what every other dealer in the world likes to say.

2) No. He can safely assume that because you're in his poker room that you know jack about poker. That's what you get for swimming in the kiddie pool.

3) Yeah, probably, but who cares? You were right.